back I recall you would send off your recording to be transcribed by somebody and it would be quite an expensive server and compare that now with these A alarms it&#8217;s an amazing value and so much faster and almost instant.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Oh yeah, and it&#8217;s something, yeah, for years and years I paid Rev to do human transcripts and that budget became higher and higher as I did more content obviously and more podcasts.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ronald:<br />Right. Then a little bit unpacking the part of publishing to where your audiences are, where your tribe is at, but I know in your case you have so many new audiences and communities across the globe speaking different languages. Do you track that? Do you analyze that or you don&#8217;t even go that fast right here it is. There are a few ways to find it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah, I&#8217;ve tried to do it and there&#8217;s never a rhyme or reason for whatever happens with any content. I mean a certain spike in listen and sometimes you try to track it and you think was there somebody that just happened to share? It&#8217;s out there somewhere that you don&#8217;t know about and there&#8217;s no way you can track it because suddenly it&#8217;s just out of the blue you&#8217;ll have five, six times as many listens one day as you did for the last five days or something and you can go and look at that topic and often the topic doesn&#8217;t make sense either what made this happen or was it shared internally somewhere? How do you</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ronald:<br />Feel about others writing on your blog or for you, is that something, I know you talked about a little bit, but what are your thoughts around that? How far do you want to extend it? You want to keep it only within co-host or anybody that&#8217;s been on the podcast and even to the point where it&#8217;s almost could monetize the way because of anybody that publish on your platform with the audience that this build up there is some value to that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah, one of the wonderful things I have is I have a group of co-hosts. If I have an idea and this is how the newsletter thing is exactly what I did with that and I can bounce an idea off and when I bounce the idea of bringing a blog back right away, several of them were like, oh, I&#8217;d love to guess both. Which it&#8217;s not easy to get people to guess posts because it&#8217;s tough enough for them to write content for themselves. So for sure the hosts to me a no-br</p>\n\n\n\n<p>ainer, especially if they want to follow up or write about one of the shows they&#8217;ve recently done. The guests almost are a second no-brainer because the opportunity to give them to follow up on something or to add to the conversation say, wow, after the conversation I thought about this one piece or I thought maybe they want to elaborate on one thing they were asked, they answered it one minute, but they have a lot more to say. So those kinds of things, I think it&#8217;s ideal. The podcast is run by the community. I mean I do all the grunt work, but I host you. I bring in guest hosts and all these guests and I want the blog to be that too as far as open guest spots, but I&#8217;m going to be very selective. I don&#8217;t want tutorials, I don&#8217;t want them writing about their product. It&#8217;s not</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ronald:<br />The audience that you&#8217;ve built up. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And get the feedback as well in the bottom of the blog have some sort of rating tool that&#8217;s used for how would you rate this content? And so they kind of use that as a way of working where depending on the number of readers and the feedback that you get is better provide the content that readers are interested in. The other thing I saw that crossed my mind working with user levels within WordPress publisher and editor admin, whether certain speakers who might want to follow up on things or even add a supportive blog post, whether they have some sort of levels that they can add and own that piece of content.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah, I guess I could say get in the groove of how I do this with the post and I still want it to be that community oriented piece and I want them to feel like they have a bit of control over that. So it&#8217;s an interesting thing to think about because I think that&#8217;s an important part.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ronald:<br />Yeah, it&#8217;s that community that you build up and it&#8217;s also back to the comments and empowering some writers to control and manage the comments and the conversation and that&#8217;s like bringing that back. It then becomes not quite a forum, but it is that engagement not just between the author and a few comments and that probably brings in more folks to then want to comment because they can get the audience with the speaker, with the writer and leave some nice words or ask for the question, what did you mean we did quote or does also apply to X, Y and Z. The other cool thing I found with the Jetpack tool, creating the social media images, so when you publish that something did you see that you add your featured image and a bit of text and within the post itself it generates a social media image that&#8217;s formatted for the different platform. Again, it&#8217;s one of those little hacks that just make so much easier to create a content, publish it and not be dragged down like, oh, I need to do this, I need to do that. And then weeks past you still haven&#8217;t published it because having that threshold as lowest as possible direct from public I think is key to just keep going. It doesn&#8217;t matter if it&#8217;s not perfect, even if it&#8217;s a light mistake, update it. Yours.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Exactly. And</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ronald:<br />Just going back on the newsletters, because we have to bring that back in because that was the original idea is like I&#8217;m going to start with a newsletter and now we, instead of really focusing on blog, blog block and all the advantages, there&#8217;s still a place for newsletters. Where do you see that sort of fall into place?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />When I visualize in my head for a newsletter and ideally what I like is I want to keep as much of this content on the site and drive people and have it as a teaser. And of course as it has been, or I guess you don&#8217;t call it newsletter, but when people get notified of a post, I mean just knowing this is a content and you can go back through and listen to what you want to read, what you want, but also is how to have that content go out automatically but also be able to add a little custom content to it to make sure that people, this is how you can more easily comment or by doing this and make it a little bit more visible. Add little snippets of something in there that</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ronald:<br />Quotes from the community like, oh, Ron said this on X and that followed up in a comment here and that&#8217;ve got some great conversation going, get engaged in this if you care about this stuff or here&#8217;s a quote, I got the community talking and it was relevant here and there. And yeah, it also a good way to introduce other platforms within the own ecosystem. If you have a guest speaker from a Woo ecosystem or from a third party developer, it&#8217;s nice to be able to reference that in a newsletter I get.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />And I think there&#8217;s a lot of potential, but I don&#8217;t want to make the newsletter, like you said, this is kind of more of a prompt the newsletter. And what I really want to do is when I get this all in place and things moving along, my next endeavor is to get Matt Mullenweg on. I&#8217;d love to just talk with him about blogging, comment and ping backs</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ronald:<br />And did you now who is also fantastic, I know if that he should bring in a guest Tim Ferris and I know he and Matt have shared so many ideas around blogging, like long form short form. Also Seth Godin and I&#8217;ve written to some podcasts around how easy it is to share something or not at all really the thought process behind blogging and I think Matt is pretty good at that. He can share something very short, one paragraph and it&#8217;s out there or some really long bits of tech, but it&#8217;s the short ones that I&#8217;m going to take way more time to think that through. Very easy to talk and write paragraphs and paragraphs. At some point people will disengage and you kind of lost them, but keeping it super short and to the point that&#8217;s real.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />And I think that&#8217;s kind of what I&#8217;m thinking about too is a lot of this and I think the site is ripe for that because there&#8217;s a lot of content we can share that is short and to the point rather than just going on and on and giving 11 tips of whatever. I mean those have its place.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ronald:<br />Yeah. Here&#8217;s another thing, you&#8217;re building up international communities and having the content of tribe or even the blog post, but having it with Google now, it&#8217;s so easy to have your full page translated as well. It&#8217;s almost instant. Well, it is instant. Which is a great way to repurpose content.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />It is.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ronald:<br />And both ways, if you have somebody writing in a lanugage that it also accessible to English speakers or to German speaker and yeah, that&#8217;s probably something that&#8217;s not talked about a lot, but super easy.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />That would be really interesting, like to open that up. We&#8217;ve done that to some effect with the one podcast where we have the community come in and talk about their own WordPress community and their locale and in their native language, and so they&#8217;re actually talking to their community. That&#8217;s another whole piece of it. And I think it is, you&#8217;re right, I know there&#8217;s podcasts in the space that does the podcast in several different languages. They actually have somebody do it in four or five languages. A little bit of the news, WordPress news, and I think there&#8217;s something there to be looked at for sure because we&#8217;re a huge community.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ronald:<br />I haven&#8217;t checked the figures, but I would sort of maybe 60, 75% of Woo users don&#8217;t live in a country where English is the first language. So maybe two thirds who don&#8217;t have English foreign language, they speak English, but to truly engage with them anyway, I guess we&#8217;ve come to the conclusion that blogging is pretty cool. I think there is blogging for anybody for yourself, whether it&#8217;s a personal diary that you have public and then you have your personal one that you keep private, whether it&#8217;s for yourself or for your business, for your ecommerce site. I think blogging for the sake of SEO definitely has value, but I don&#8217;t think that should be the prime goal to block call because then you end up in not very pretty or very well organized content to hit certain keywords and I think that puts people off. But write it for your, like you do with social media, keep it short to the point with a link to your product, to your podcast, wherever you want people to go to or the call to action. I think that probably has a good reason to consider it again.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah, for sure. And definitely I think we&#8217;ve touched on enough different thing given our thoughts. Some of the direction Do the Woo might go. So if there is not a perfect post to come in and comment, anybody listening to this, this is a post because we&#8217;ve talked about a lot of things and I&#8217;m sure everybody that&#8217;s listened to it has actually thought, well, yeah, that makes sense, or nope, this is the way I would do it or this is how it works for me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ronald:<br />And maybe that&#8217;s the comment, call out what are the forms of blog posts or good examples of other forms of blog posts like rich content, whether it snippet the codes or a gallery photos or sound snippets or maybe a poll to get voting. That all can all be part of a blog pro. It doesn&#8217;t always have to be just paragraph or words.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Right, exactly. So we&#8217;re going to encourage everybody listening now to come and leave a comment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ronald:<br />I&#8217;m inspired now. I&#8217;m going to revisit my own site. I haven&#8217;t touched since I started working at quite a few years now. It&#8217;s all very well preaching about it, but maybe we should all get back to blogging. I think it&#8217;s a good way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Well this has been great and yeah, everybody hope you enjoyed it and let us know your thoughts. You&#8217;ll go into the post, leave a comment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ronald:<br />It&#8217;s been a great Blogstorm, Bob</p>\n\n\n\n<p>. Yeah,</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ll be right alongside there, at least in spirit one way or another.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ronald:<br />Yeah, I need to write one of the first posts or co-write to see what.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Alright, Ronald, thanks everyone for listening and yeah, let us know what you think about all this stuff we were talking about. Alright, thank you all.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ronald:<br />Thanks Bob.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n\n<p>In this episode of <strong><em>The WordPress Way</em></strong>, hosts <strong>BobWP</strong> and <strong>Ronald Gijsel</strong> kick up a blogstorm. What&#8217;s that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Soon here on this site you will see the blog as it returns and becomes a integral part of this builder and business community. BobWP and Ronald started brainstorming what the main goal of this blog would be offline, but it quickly ended when Ronald suggested we take it public. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>So that&#8217;s it. A live and fun blogstorm.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Takeaways</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Return to Blogging</strong>: BobWP is considering bringing back the blog on Do the Woo after realizing the site felt incomplete without it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Engagement through Newsletters</strong>: In our case, newsletters should serve as prompts to drive people to the blog for more content, rather than being long-form content themselves.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Content Strategy for Do the Woo</strong>: The blog will act as an extension of the podcast, with hosts and guests contributing posts that complement the podcast episodes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Community-Driven Content</strong>: The podcast and blog will be community-oriented, encouraging interaction and engagement through comments and guest contributions.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I<strong>mportance of Comments</strong>: BobWP believes in the value of comments and is exploring ways to drive more engagement and conversation through blog comments.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Balancing Social Media and Blog Content</strong>: There&#8217;s a need to balance content between social media platforms and the blog, ensuring the blog remains the central hub of activity.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Leveraging Transcripts for Content</strong>: Transcripts from podcast episodes can be repurposed into blog posts, highlighting key takeaways and providing additional value to the audience.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Using AI for Content Repurposing</strong>: AI tools can assist in repurposing existing content, such as cleaning up transcripts and generating summaries, but not for creating original content.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Embracing Multi-language Content</strong>: Considering the international nature of the audience, there&#8217;s potential to explore multi-language content to reach a broader audience.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Personal Brand and Focus</strong>: BobWP is consolidating his efforts under the Do the Woo brand, using his Gravatar profile as the primary personal identifier.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Encouraging Guest Contributions</strong>: There’s a strong interest in having guest posts from hosts and podcast guests to further enrich the blog’s content.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Value of Owning Content</strong>: Emphasizes the long-term value of owning content through a blog, as opposed to relying solely on transient social media platforms.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Utilizing Tools like Jetpack</strong>: Jetpack&#8217;s tools, such as social media image generation and cross-platform publishing, can simplify the process of maintaining and promoting the blog.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Driving Engagement through Follow-ups</strong>: Engaging the community by following up on podcast topics with blog posts, encouraging discussion, and fostering a deeper connection with the audience.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Building a Central Content Hub</strong>: The blog should serve as the central hub for all content, with social media and newsletters acting as feeders to drive traffic back to the site.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 23 Jul 2024 09:05:43 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:24;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:71:\"WordPress.org blog: WP Briefing: Episode 84: A WordPress 6.6 Sneak Peek\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:53:\"https://wordpress.org/news/?post_type=podcast&p=17539\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:73:\"https://wordpress.org/news/2024/07/episode-84-a-wordpress-6-6-sneak-peek/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:26873:\"<p>Join WordPress Executive Director, Josepha Haden Chomphosy, as she offers an exclusive preview of the recently released WordPress 6.6, accompanied by special guest Meher Bala, the release&#8217;s coordinator. Don’t miss this opportunity for an insider’s look!</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Credits</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Host:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/chanthaboune/\">Josepha Haden Chomphosy</a><br />Guest:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/meher/\">Meher Bala</a><br />Editor:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/adamatdayone/\">Adam Daly</a><br />Logo:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/javiarce/\">Javier Arce</a><br />Production:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bjmcsherry/\">Brett McSherry</a><br />Song: Fearless First by Kevin MacLeod</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Show Notes</h2>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/download/releases/6-6/\">WordPress 6.6 Download</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/\">Make WordPress &#8211; Core</a>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://wordpress.slack.com/archives/C02RQBWTW\">WordPress Core Slack</a></li>\n</ul>\n</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Small List of Big Things</strong>\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/community/2024/07/04/first-time-attendees/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">First-Time Attendees: A Key Metric of Success for WordPress Events</a>&nbsp;</li>\n\n\n\n<li>The&nbsp;<a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/docs/2023/04/25/monthly-online-docs-team-contributor-day-starts-april-2023/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Docs team holds an online Contributor Day</a>&nbsp;every fourth Tuesday.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Reminder:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/online-workshops/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Online workshops</a>&nbsp;are live sessions where you can learn alongside other WordPress enthusiasts.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/media-corps/2024/07/03/recap-of-the-media-corps-briefing-on-wordpress-6-6/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Recap of the Media Corps Briefing on WordPress 6.6</a>&nbsp;</li>\n</ul>\n</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Have a question you’d like answered? Submit them to&nbsp;<a href=\"mailto:wpbriefing@WordPress.org\">WPBriefing@WordPress.org</a>.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript</h2>\n\n\n\n<span id=\"more-17539\"></span>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:00:00]&nbsp;<strong>Josepha:</strong>&nbsp;Hello, everyone, and welcome to the WordPress Briefing, the podcast where you can catch quick explanations of some of the ideas behind the WordPress open source project and the community around it, as well as get a small list of big things coming up in the next two weeks. I’m your host, Josepha Haden Chomphosy. Here we go!&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:00:28] (Intro Music)&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><span>[00:00:40]&nbsp;<strong>Josepha:</strong>&nbsp;</span>Last week, we released WordPress 6.6, and I had a chance to chat with a long-time contributor and member of the Release Squad about it.&nbsp;Today, I have with me Meher, and she was, well I guess I will let her tell us what she did with the release, but at the time of this recording, yesterday we had the WordPress 6.6 release, codenamed &#8216;Dorsey,&#8217; and so Meher, welcome to the WordPress Briefing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:01:05] <strong>Meher:</strong> Hi, thank you for inviting me. It&#8217;s nice to be here.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><span>[00:01:09]&nbsp;<strong>Josepha:</strong>&nbsp;Why don&#8217;t you tell us a little bit about yourself, what you do in the WordPress project, how long you&#8217;ve been contributing, and then the role that you played in our big, big mid-year release?</span></p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:01:19] <strong>Meher:</strong> So my name is Meher. I&#8217;m a front-end developer. I&#8217;m also a CEO of KDC. I&#8217;m also a codable expert in WordPress. I started with contributing into the marketing field. Then, slowly, for 5.6, I got to be on the release squad, learned about training, about how the release goes, process happens. From that time onwards, I&#8217;ve been part of marketing or, basically, I&#8217;ve been part of the marketing team for all the releases. For 6.6, I picked to do the Release Coordinator, something different, something new, wanting to know what goes into it.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:02:03] <strong>Josepha:</strong> That is a big leap from like hanging out in marketing to going to be the Release Coordinator. Before we get into the release itself, just what made you think to yourself, I would like to do that? I would like to stand up and wrangle all of these contributors across the world. Make sure we get a release out?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:02:20] <strong>Meher:</strong> I wanted to try something new. Like even in WordCamp, each role is different. So, even in the release, I wanted to try each different things. And like 5.6, I was in documentation. Then, I was in marketing. So then I got used to marketing, so I stick with my, no, I stuck with marketing. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:02:39] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:02:40] <strong>Meher:</strong> So this time, I want to try something different, and I want to see, you know, how easy was it to be a Release Coordinator because it&#8217;s a Release Coordinator, see, you know, it&#8217;s, it&#8217;s a like a big thing coordinating so many people so many different teams going on, working together, and so yeah, it was fun.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:02:58] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Great. I&#8217;m glad that you found it fun. I always worry when people make big shifts. I&#8217;m like, did we put enough documentation to make it clear? Are they going to find it easy to get started or not? And I think you did a really great job with it. So congratulations, since that happened just yesterday, less than 24 hours ago.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:16] <strong>Meher:</strong> Yes, less than 24 hours.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:21] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Yeah, yeah. So, from your position as the Release Coordinator, what are the biggest, like, one or two features that you really were excited to see get in this release?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:32] <strong>Meher:</strong> Oh, one of the biggest features was the style override patterns.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:37] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Oh, yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:38] <strong>Meher:</strong> Which I found very useful because a lot of people are using patterns. So, you know, patterns override; if you wanna change something on a specific page, it&#8217;s really useful then just to, you know, recreate a second pattern and then to match up and all. And second, which I liked as a user, was the publish box on the post becoming very clear, very, you know, cluster-free, very minimalistic, and just so comfortable that a normal user will actually understand what is there instead of going to each dropdown and figuring out what needs to be done. So, for me, I think as a developer and user, these two are the fun features, which I like, which 6.5 had, so. There are many other features as well. These are the two great features.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:28] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Yeah. I mean, I don&#8217;t think that anyone can argue about the importance of making things a little easier to see, a little easier to use. It&#8217;s been a little bit since WordPress was like fall into it easy to use. I feel like we have been the easiest of the robust CMS systems for like a long time. I know I said CMS systems. That&#8217;s like saying pin number. I know that the S in CMS is systems, but anyway, that notwithstanding, we&#8217;ve been the easiest of the complex solutions for a long time, and I think it&#8217;s always great when we, when we take a moment to be like, what could we make a bit easier to just like, no instructions required you get in there and you can tell like, what any individual thing will do without necessarily, like you said, having to go into drop downs and reading a bunch of stuff a little guesswork is okay. And also, it&#8217;s clear that none of it is dangerous. And so I think that&#8217;s, I think that&#8217;s a a good change myself. So, I agree with your assessment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:27] <strong>Josepha:</strong> So the style override patterns, that&#8217;s part of the suite of design tools that we&#8217;re pulling together, right?&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:33] <strong>Meher:</strong> Yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:34] <strong>Josepha:</strong> in your experience, you said you&#8217;re the CEO of your company, like in your experience, does that feel like something that&#8217;s super useful for agencies or particularly useful for freelancers, or should it generally be useful for everyone?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:47] <strong>Meher:</strong> It will be useful from a small business point to a freelancer as well because we always try, like, in each page, we always, you know, there is some bits repeated, you know, so, patterns makes it easier, and syndicate pattern makes it more easier so that you can just duplicate and have one place to change. And, like, you have ten pages, you have one pattern across ten pages. The 11th page, you want the same pattern, but little change in that. It&#8217;s easier. It&#8217;s good because you can just change on that page, one particular thing and still go in the parent and change other things to reflect in that. So it will be very helpful for freelancers, small agencies. I do see big agencies take advantage of it. So overall, it should help everyone.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:06:35] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Good. Good. I, for one, isn&#8217;t it great when we can get a feature out that mostly is going to help everyone. But I have been especially interested in the features that we&#8217;re trying to get out that help that kind of like small to medium agency area. I feel like we have a lot of folks in the WordPress community who do exactly what you&#8217;re talking about. You&#8217;re getting something together. You have a mostly what you need across your site. You have one style that&#8217;s out there, but there&#8217;s this one area that you want to have a little bit more personality or a little less personality, depending on what your client is looking for, like this one is applying for jobs, and it needs to be a little less exciting or whatever it is.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:13] <strong>Josepha:</strong> I think that&#8217;s great that we have that option. So you don&#8217;t have to try to, I don&#8217;t know, hack your way through that. I know that we&#8217;re not a super get-in-there-and hack-on-it sort of group anymore these days, but I love that we still have that feeling of we&#8217;re gonna, we&#8217;re going to make this a safe hacking space for you. Just get in there and make it work. So that&#8217;s excellent. Excellent. So for you, then, personally, cause you wear a lot of hats, you&#8217;ve your front-end developer; you&#8217;re running your company, you&#8217;re working, you&#8217;re a codable expert. You&#8217;ve got all these things. So from your perspective, what is the thing that got into this release that was a surprising, like a diamond in the rough for you, like a surprising good feature when you just thought it was like an important feature at some point? Was there one that seemed like it was a good idea but became a great idea by the time it was out?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:00] <strong>Meher:</strong> Oh, I would say style variations because I did not expect the final style variation to be what it is. A theme developer can create the theme, can add styles, can add fonts, can give different design elements to the theme as a normal user when they when someone wants to just pull up a website, but they&#8217;re not good in design, or they don&#8217;t know which font to use. They choose which font, but then it doesn&#8217;t work. So if the theme provides an easy option just to shift the different styles they&#8217;re using and combining with the fonts. It is a much bigger opportunity for everyone because a normal user can just, they have a black and white site. I want to shift to a colorful site. Just go and see what the theme art has given you and shift it. So I think that I was surprised and I like the outcome. I&#8217;m sure my blogger friends also will like it because then they don&#8217;t have to depend on a designer to you know, give them color schemes and stuff.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:01] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Yes. Yeah. So unrelated. It&#8217;s only, it&#8217;s kind of related. I shouldn&#8217;t say it&#8217;s unrelated. It&#8217;s all about WordPress. And now it&#8217;s about color palettes. So, I have a new design on my blog. And unfortunately I am the sort of person that does need a designer to tell me what I meant by the thing I thought. <span>And so, like, I had this idea of the sort of color palette that I wanted and was searching for color palettes inside themes, which I was not succeeding at.</span> And eventually I had a designer who was happy to help you figure this out and get something out there. And they got me something that&#8217;s absolutely perfect. It&#8217;s got an excellent color palette and they redid some images for me. So it looks nice and hip and feels kind of modern. I think it&#8217;s great. But the one thing that I consistently felt confident to mess with while I was in there, because I think they did some custom work in there too, is all of the stuff that&#8217;s included in style variations. Like, I&#8217;m not touching colors because I can&#8217;t put colors together to save my life. But I was pleasantly surprised also by that particular feature. It gives you a feeling of I can change the face of this through the fonts or whatever it is. And I think that&#8217;s a nice, a nice thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:06] <strong>Meher:</strong> And it&#8217;s a, it&#8217;s a perfect combination. Color and font. Because a lot of people don&#8217;t know today&#8217;s time which font is good. Or which font is needed for an industry.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:16] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Exactly. Fortunately, I&#8217;m a site manager of one. And so I just had to ask myself if I liked the font and moved on from there. So, oh. So, like I said, as we&#8217;re recording this, we are less than 24 hours past the release. How was your experience with this release? Was it enjoyable? Did it like expand your horizons? Were there surprises in how a release is run?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:43] <strong>Meher:</strong> There was no surprises because I&#8217;ve already been a part of a release. So I.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:47] <strong>Josepha:</strong> That&#8217;s&nbsp;fair.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:49] <strong>Meher:</strong> You know, it&#8217;s depends on what happens on the day.&nbsp;But yes, behind the scenes, following up, just checking in to make sure, are we on time, do we need more time, or what needs, you know, how much more time is required. It was fairly good, I was only clearly concerned about on the day of the release, because there&#8217;s a lot of things to cover.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:09] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Yes.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:10] <strong>Meher:</strong> Usually, the party of the beta and the RCs finish in less than hour or so. But the final has a lot more detailed steps and many people to ping, to get, you know, them on the day of the release.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:24] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Yeah, for folks who have never watched a release happen. So, I think a lot of the folks who listen to this podcast, they find it in the dashboard, they don&#8217;t necessarily contribute to WordPress. But, like, if you&#8217;ve never watched a WordPress release, we have these release parties for every beta that goes out, every release candidate that goes out, and then the general release. And I always find them so fascinating because, we have hundreds of contributors over the course of an individual release. And then we have probably 50, 60 people who show up at, for some of you all, in the middle of the night and are just being directed, like their attention is just being directed here and there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:12:06] <strong>Josepha:</strong> And I love watching it because I, I&#8217;m always in the release channel. I&#8217;m in the core channel. All of these are in Slack. And then I&#8217;m also in the admin channel where you have to do the flipping of switches and packaging things. And it&#8217;s really interesting to see, almost like a scan of a brain where things are lighting up for various things. <span>Like, you do the pre-testing in the release channel, and then you do the general testing in the core channel.</span> And then we&#8217;ve got like a person who&#8217;s flipping switches in the back, in the admin area to make sure that it all gets together. And it&#8217;s just really interesting to see how it all works. And yeah, it&#8217;s a really fun thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dear listener, if you have never, if you&#8217;ve never done this, you have another opportunity. And I think the next release is early in November or something. And even if you&#8217;re there as like a spectator, not necessarily ready to take part in the release, sometimes it&#8217;s kind of nice to see how much effort and how many people are showing up to work on any individual release.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><span>[00:13:01]&nbsp;<strong>Josepha:</strong>&nbsp;This was your first time to lead the release parties, though, right?</span></p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:13:06] <strong>Meher:</strong> Yes. My first time releasing a release party. Also, to the spectators who have never been a part of release, you can just come and say hi. Like, yesterday, on the day of the release, there was one participant who joined for the first time, and she did contribute.&nbsp;And she was amazed by how smooth it went through. And for me, the best part of any release is seeing the green tick when people start testing. So, you know, everything is smooth sailing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:13:34] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:13:34] <strong>Meher:</strong> And we&#8217;ll reach the destination.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:13:36] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Yes. It&#8217;s, it is a real testament to how well and how closely all of these folks can work together, which if you stop and think about the fact that everybody&#8217;s like all over the world, it&#8217;s all across the globe that this is happening. It is why WordPress works, right? All of these people, all of you coming together to do this on behalf of this software. How cool that you had somebody who joined for the first time and then they were able to contribute immediately.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:02] <strong>Meher:</strong> Yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:03] <strong>Josepha:</strong> I love that.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:04] <strong>Meher:</strong> Also, there are a lot of folks who&#8217;ve done it. So they&#8217;re always ready to help out. You know, if you&#8217;re stuck somewhere, as a first-time release lead, there were certain questions I had. There are a lot of people to guide you to the right direction or to say, this needs to go here, or you need to tell the audience this. A lot of support you get from the squad itself, plus the people who are not on the squad and who&#8217;ve done this.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:29] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Absolutely. I remember the first release that I led I was the coordinator of it and I believe it was 5.0. I believe it was the one that we put Gutenberg in core with, and it was the most terrifying thing I&#8217;d ever done. Not because I hadn&#8217;t been watching these releases happening for years, but because it&#8217;s different participating and watching and then being the person who is like you said, like making sure that things are still going on time that you understand when you need to say, like, there&#8217;s no way that this works for users right now. We have to take it out and all those things. And then, yeah, the day of, the first time that you have to run one of those global meetings, be like, &#8216;everyone, we don&#8217;t have time for this. Move on&#8217;. That&#8217;s always a really hard first time. Well, cool. That&#8217;s so exciting. So I have a last question for you, and that is, you&#8217;ve kind of let us into it, for first-time contributors to a release, especially anyone who&#8217;s thinking about joining the release squad for the first time, do you have any advice, anything that you wish you had been told when you were coming into this?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:15:32] <strong>Meher:</strong> Come with an open mind and come with a thought that there are people to help you. Ask in any channel. There will be someone or the other who will answer you immediately or a little later, depending on the time zone, and will guide you to the right person or right documentation where you can read up because there is a lot of documentation, good documentation on releases, how it handles and what team is needed, what they are supposed to do. So, you, you have a friendly bunch of people. Just ask.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:03] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Excellent. I love it. I love that advice. That was really good advice. Don&#8217;t be scared. Everybody has answers, and they want to give them to you. I agree. That is a real strong truth for the WordPress project. Last thoughts: anything you want to share with the WordPress community with our community of listeners here?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:20] <strong>Meher:</strong> Looking forward for new people joining the next release and seeing 6.7 new features, which I&#8217;m excited about, collaborative phase three coming into picture and excited about it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:32] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Yeah. So you can come join us, make.WordPress.org/core, or you can join us in the Slack instance. You can go to chat.WordPress.org and get signed up for that. We coordinate all of this in the core channel, and we hope to see every new contributor that&#8217;s been on the fence. We hope you show up. There&#8217;s a new meeting every two weeks just for y&#8217;all. Meher, this has been an excellent conversation. Thank you so much for joining me today.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:56] <strong>Meher:</strong> Thank you for having me. It was fun.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:58] (Music interlude)&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:05] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Hopefully, you&#8217;ve had a chance to download the release and try it out on your own sites. As always, if you run into any bugs, let us know so that we can get them in the next point release.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that brings us now to our small list of big things. I have a moderate-sized small list. The first one is that WordPress is a reminder, actually. It&#8217;s a lot of reminders this week if I get right down to it, but this first one is a reminder that one of our big-picture goals for 2024 was getting new users into our event series. Our goal, of course, is to warmly welcome more first-time attendees and new users, and future WordPressers at all of our events, and that&#8217;s something that you can help get done. So, for all of our event organizers, or if you have not organized an event yet and would like to, just so that you can meet the fellow WordPressers in your area or, get to grow your own network a little bit. We&#8217;ve got a few best practices that can help you to make sure that you have a good experience for first time attendees. For one, you should always consider some thoughtful event design. Craft your events with some first-time attendees in mind. You have to consider their needs and interests and potential barriers to participation. Second, it helps to have some targeted messaging. Ensure that you have promotional materials that highlight the benefits of attending, but also what new knowledge, skills, or professional connections folks will gain when they come. It&#8217;s also good to share success stories of past first-time attendees. And then just kind of a final note for that on outreach strategies. You should experiment with a range of marketing channels to reach professional new attendees. You can partner with local schools, professional organizations, and online communities who can help to spread the word.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:52] <strong>Josepha:</strong> The second thing on our small list of big things is a reminder that the Docs Team holds an online Contributor Day every fourth Tuesday. They&#8217;ve been doing this for about a year now. And I think that it&#8217;s one of the most engaging and fun new contributor experiences we have, which I realize might sound odd for documentation, but it&#8217;s a great team. It&#8217;s got a great number of team reps in it. And they&#8217;re looking for you. They&#8217;re looking out for you to come and join for your first time on a Contributor Day. The next one is actually tomorrow, July 23rd. I&#8217;ll have a link for that in the show notes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:29] <strong>Josepha:</strong> And the third thing on our list is a reminder about online workshops. These are live sessions where you can learn alongside other WordPress enthusiasts, and they&#8217;re, you know, safe spaces where you can come as you are, develop new ideas, explore issues that you&#8217;re having, ask questions, network over shared interests, exchange theories, collaborate, and honestly, thrive on a bit of problem-solving together. New workshops are happening all the time. You can check out the schedule to join in on a live session and even watch some of the previous sessions to see if it&#8217;s for you.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:20:03] <strong>Josepha:</strong> And the final thing on our list is that there is a recap up of the first Media Corps Briefing that was held on June 27th, and it provided media partners with an overview of the Source of Truth and updates that were planned for WordPress 6.6, that was released last week. Obviously, we just talked to Meher about it. But that particular session featured guest Anne McCarthy, who explained and demoed some of the upcoming features and answered a bunch of questions from the participants. The briefing was recorded and published on the WordPress YouTube channel. Apart from the recording, you can also find a summary, the full transcript, and other relevant links from the link in the show notes.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><span>[00:20:42]&nbsp;<strong>Josepha:</strong>&nbsp;And that, my friends, is your small list of big things.</span> Don&#8217;t forget to follow us on your favorite podcast app or subscribe directly on WordPress.org/news. You&#8217;ll get a friendly reminder whenever there&#8217;s a new episode. If you liked what you heard today, share it with a fellow WordPresser. Or, if you had questions about what you heard today, you can share those with me at WPBriefing@WordPress.org. I am your host, Josepha Haden Chomphosy. Thank you for tuning in today for the WordPress Briefing. And I&#8217;m taking a little break from the podcast in August, and so I will see you again, my friends, in September.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:21:15] (Music outro)&nbsp;</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Mon, 22 Jul 2024 12:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14:\"Brett McSherry\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:25;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:89:\"Gutenberg Times: Gutenberg Changelog #104 – Block Themes, Gutenberg 18.8, WordPress 6.6\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:53:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/?post_type=podcast&p=29449\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:87:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-104-block-themes-gutenberg-18-8/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:62481:\"<p>In this episode, Carolina Nymark and Birgit Pauli-Haack discuss Block Themes, Gutenberg 18.8, WordPress 6.6 and more.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-104-block-themes-gutenberg-18-8/#shownotes\">Show Notes</a> / <a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-104-block-themes-gutenberg-18-8/#transcript\">Transcript</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p></p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Editor:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandy-reed/\">Sandy Reed</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Logo:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://markuraine.com/\">Mark Uraine</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Production:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://icodeforapurpose.com\">Birgit Pauli-Haack</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-larger-font-size\" id=\"shownotes\"><strong>Show Notes</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Special Guest: Carolina Nymark</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/poena/\">WordPress Profile @poena</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://x.com/carolinapoena\">On X (former Twitter)  @carolinapoena </a></p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a href=\"https://fullsiteediting.com/\">FullsiteEditing.com</a></h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Updated pages: </p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://fullsiteediting.com/lessons/global-styles/\">Global Styles &amp; theme.json</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://fullsiteediting.com/lessons/theme-json-color-options/\">Theme.json color options</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://fullsiteediting.com/lessons/theme-json-font-size/\">Theme.json typography: Font size</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://fullsiteediting.com/lessons/theme-json-typography-font-styles/\">Theme.json typography: Line height, font weight and more</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://fullsiteediting.com/lessons/how-to-add-box-shadows-with-theme-json/\">How to add shadows with theme.json</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">WordPress 6.6</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/18/wordpress-6-6-1-rc1-is-now-available/\">WordPress&nbsp;6.6.1&nbsp;RC1 is now available</a></p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/06/24/section-styles/\">Section Styles</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2024/06/21/styling-sections-nested-elements-and-more-with-block-style-variations-in-wordpress-6-6/\">Styling sections, nested elements, and more with Block Style Variations in WordPress 6.6</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/06/19/theme-json-version-3/\">Theme.json version 3</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/themes/2024/06/21/theme-json-version-3-frequently-asked-questions/\">Theme.json version 3 frequently asked questions</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2024/06/18/an-introduction-to-overrides-in-synced-patterns/\">An introduction to overrides in Synced Patterns</a>&nbsp;</li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/issues/62566#top\">Synced Patterns iteration for WordPress 6.7 (Draft)</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/06/18/grid-layout-type/\">Grid layout type</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/01/recap-hallway-hangout-exploring-grid-layouts/\">Recap Hallway Hangout: Exploring Grid Layouts</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Announcements</h2>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://www.meetup.com/learn-wordpress-online-workshops/events/301860423/\">Developer Hours: Do you really need a custom block?</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2024/07/04/15-ways-to-curate-the-wordpress-editing-experience/\">15 ways to curate the WordPress editing experience</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/block-editor/how-to-guides/curating-the-editor-experience/\">Docs: Curating the Editor Experience</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Gutenberg 18.8</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/17/whats-new-in-gutenberg-18-8-17-july/\">What’s new in Gutenberg 18.8 (17 July)</a>&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What&#8217;s discussed or in the works</h2>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/pull/63335\">[Experiment] Add freeform image cropper component</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/issues/55238\">Media Library updates&nbsp;</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/issues/56837#top\">Add color and other style options to the Audio Block</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-large-font-size\">Stay in Touch</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group\"><div class=\"wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-flow wp-block-group-is-layout-flow\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Did you like this episode? <a href=\"https://lovethepodcast.com/gutenbergchangelog\"><strong>Please write us a review </strong></a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Ping us on X (formerly known as Twitter) or send DMs with questions. <a href=\"https://twitter.com/gutenbergtimes\">@gutenbergtimes </a>and <a href=\"https://twitter.com/bph\">@bph</a>.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><em>If you have questions or suggestions, or news you want us to include, send them to <a href=\"mailto:changelog@gutenbergtimes.com\">changelog@gutenbergtimes.com</a>. </em></li>\n\n\n\n<li><em>Please write us a review on iTunes! <a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/itunes/\">(Click here to learn how)</a></em></li>\n</ul>\n</div></div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-large-font-size\" id=\"transcript\"><strong>Transcript</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack</em>: Hello, and welcome to our 104th episode of the Gutenberg ChangeLog podcast. In today&#8217;s episode, we&#8217;ll talk about block themes, Gutenberg 18.8, WordPress 6.6, and so much more. I&#8217;m your host, Birgit Pauli-Haack, curator at the Gutenberg Times and full-time core contributor for the WordPress Core, Open Source Project sponsored by Automattic Five For The Future Program.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Today I&#8217;m delighted to have with me on the show Carolina Nymark, core contributor, sponsored by Yoast. She writes on fullsiteediting.com and she regularly updates and adds features to the Gutenberg plugin and block themes, and she&#8217;s from Sweden. Thank you so much for being on the show. How are you today, Carolina?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark</em>: Hi, I&#8217;m well, thank you. June was a very hot month, but July has actually been a little bit cooler. We have had some rain here just outside Stockholm, so it&#8217;s been nice.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack</em>: Yeah. So yeah, the rain&#8230; In Germany it&#8217;s still very hot or it&#8217;s up and down. It was cooler earlier this month, but it&#8217;s now really, really hot. And I&#8217;m glad, I&#8217;m going out to the lake or maybe I&#8217;m going to go jump into the lake that&#8217;s a little bit southeast of Munich over the weekend. So hopefully the weather holds to actually have that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> That sounds amazing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, well, we&#8217;ll see. We are also working on the house of my parents, to fix some of the things, and I don&#8217;t know how much time we&#8217;re going to have. Yeah. So yeah, let&#8217;s just get into the show.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Announcements &#8211; WordPress 6.6</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>The long-awaited release of WordPress 6.6 happened earlier this week and it&#8217;s named Dorsey after the legendary American big band leader, Tommy Dorsey, with the smooth sounds.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The release post actually sports a Spotify link with a playlist of his great songs. It took about 630 contributors from 51 countries, and this release also welcomed over 150 first-time contributors. That&#8217;s a huge number every time we have a release with the new contributors. So I&#8217;m really happy that we can onboard so many new contributors and get them on the release.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, since the roadmap came out on 6.6 in March, we talked about the upcoming releases quite a bit. So for you Carolina, the next question I ask almost everybody who was on the show, what are the most exciting updates in WordPress 6.6 for you?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark: </em>Well, I hope this isn&#8217;t too repetitive, but there are several things. The updated block style variations or section styles is a great addition. It helps users quickly select a pattern or a part of a page and just really changes the style of it. It helps WordPress developers to work faster as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I&#8217;ve heard some rumors that this is only a feature for block themes, and that is not true. You can use these section styles even in classic themes, as long as you&#8217;re using the block editor. Because you do not need to use JSON or a theme JSON file to register these. You can register them with PHP.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> That&#8217;s true. Yeah. The block styles have been in Gutenberg for a long time, but the section styles are just coming in that you have a group of blocks that the styles apply to for the container blocks, like the group blocks, the columns block, and what was the other one? Was it media text?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Cover perhaps. I&#8217;ve mainly been testing it out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Oh, with the cover. Yeah. Yeah, you&#8217;re right. You&#8217;re testing them out? You were going to say?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> I was going to move on to my next favorite feature.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Oh, okay. So let me just say that we have in the show notes two things for you, dear listeners. And that&#8217;s going to be the dev notes about sections styles. And also the latest developer blog post about styling sections, nested elements, and more about the block style variations in WordPress 6.6. So what else is exciting for you?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark: </em>We have the update where we&#8217;re using theme version three, which solves problems with the font size and spacing presets. And the presets are the default values that WordPress adds. So before we can upgrade to version three, of course the developers need to learn about the changes. And they need to decide if they actually want to upgrade or not.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And this is going to depend on, well, which WordPress version do you need to support you. If you&#8217;re supporting WordPress 6.6 and forwards, then you can definitely switch to version three. But if you still need to support, I don&#8217;t know, 6.0, 6.3 and so on, then you have to consider this more carefully.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So of course there&#8217;s been many discussions about this with theme developers, especially in WordCamp Europe. And so for example, their discussions about, so if I switch to version three, I&#8217;m also going to have to update the spacing that I&#8217;m using inside the templates. And again, we come back to, okay, so if I update the template, how do I make sure that the end user knows that there is a theme update, that to actually receive this update to the template they might have to go and reset the template on their installation. It&#8217;s just tricky. It&#8217;s an important decision to make if you&#8217;re supporting many different WordPress versions.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. That has always been a bigger problem for theme developers when they update their templates and the user has modified the templates through the Global Styles, that the updates are not overwriting those. Because the user has the latest priority or the highest priority. So a theme update wouldn&#8217;t necessarily come through and make this available for all the sites. Yeah, that&#8217;s true.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This doesn&#8217;t go away with the theme JSON version though, version 3, but it makes it probably a little easier. But what will make it easier is another feature we&#8217;re going to talk about, but I just wanted to point out as a side note that Carolina Nymark has updated pages on the fullsiteediting.com site to include all the new developments and updates, and I think there are five pages that were updated.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>There was one on Global Styles and theme JSON. Theme JSON color options and typography options for fun, size, line height, font rate and more, and then how to add shadows with the theme JSON. So the great site, fullsiteediting.com that focuses so much on block theme, teaches you even more on the new developments. So thanks, Carolina, for putting all the work in. Yeah, so what&#8217;s next? So we had the style sections, we have the theme JSON changes, and then&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> We also have the overrides for synced patterns. This helps you to keep the overall form, shape, the sign of parts of the content that they have inserted, but still change part of the content. For example, if you have this group block with the specific image and the heading that highlights your feature and the button, then maybe you want to use different images and you can go in and only change that image.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, that&#8217;s a great tool.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> And go update. So it&#8217;s not super easy to explain, but yes, it&#8217;s very helpful for site creators. From a theme developer perspective, there&#8217;s not much one can do with the overrides for synced patterns, since themes cannot register synced patterns, only regular standard patterns.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So there&#8217;s no attribute that I as a theme developer can add, for example, to my patent PHP file to make it synced on theme activation. That doesn&#8217;t exist. But hopefully we can continue working on that and find ways to make that happen.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, so let me unpack that for a little bit. So if a user wants to create a synced pattern and use one of the theme patterns as a blueprint for that, they need to use the duplicate feature in the panel manager.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark</em>: Yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> And then switch on the synced part and preferably also rename it so they don&#8217;t see it twice in the list of patterns.But then if the pattern gets updated through the theme, they could see it, but their duplicate version won&#8217;t update. So they need to take care of that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I like the synced pattern for site builders, because it releases quite a few headaches that you had before. That you couldn&#8217;t update the patterns and styles through the Global Styles, now you can. And now you can also have your users or your other editors use the same and just change your mind about the background.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> It helps if you have editors and you only want them to be able to edit specific things, then the synced patterns with overrides definitely helps with that. That&#8217;s one of their biggest purposes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. Also for myself, if I had a pattern that I can change the content of it more and more or more often, and reuse it for a book review or for just a call for action. And I always have the same design, but the call to action is a different one. It also helps me as a site owner quite a bit to streamline my processes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But you&#8217;re right, so developer block has an introduction to the overrides in synced patterns. That will be interesting to learn about, if you want to read, if you want to learn about it. And then also link an iteration tracking issue for synced pattern in WordPress 6.7. It&#8217;s still named a draft, but it has, when you look at it, it lists all the issues that theme developers had with the synced patterns and that they want to get fixed or enabled or feature requests. And one of them is actually make synced patterns available for theme developers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>There&#8217;s also great discussions from quite a few theme developers in the community that have been vocal about that, and the responses from the developers like Riad bringing it all together in an overall model for synced patterns. So I&#8217;m really looking forward to how that works going to progress. I&#8217;m not sure if it&#8217;s going to be coming to WordPress 6.7, because we only would know by the end of September, but there&#8217;s two months or two and a half months to go to actually work on that. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> I&#8217;m just thinking that two and a half months, it&#8217;s a very short time. The release squad for the 6.7 release, the post where you can sign up or actually apply to be part of the release squad has been up. I guess we&#8217;ll know more later next week.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, I think so. I&#8217;m going to put it in the show notes, what you&#8217;re just saying, the post with a proposal for the release and raise your hand if you want to be part of it. And there&#8217;s also a section, on the core block was another post that was, what would you like to see in the theme Twenty Twenty Five?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Because every year the last release of the year also comes with a new default theme. And I&#8217;m looking forward to what&#8217;s going to be next in there, and how many of the features that we are talking about right now are coming into the default theme.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Yes, absolutely. So there actually is a GitHub repository already open for Twenty Twenty Five, where you can submit issues with what we&#8217;d like to see. For example, maybe you want to see an example of how we see negative margins. Or maybe you want to see the new grid variation, which is now&#8230; So the grid has been available in WordPress, but it hasn&#8217;t had the same kind of UI interface and options that we see in 6.6.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So in 6.6 we have the grid as a group variation. I&#8217;m looking forward to learning more about how to actually use these settings. I&#8217;m not familiar with them yet. Actually I do find it a little bit confusing. So I have to really set dedicated time to learning this. So we have the grid and we are able to, for example, set how many columns we want in the grid. We can adapt how our content inside the grid will flow into a different row, for example.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But then you have to go and select there the block that is inside the grid and decide, do I want this particular block to be two columns wide? Or do I want it to be two rows, for example? So once I feel comfortable with that and know how it works, then I think we&#8217;re going to be able to create some really interesting layouts.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, you do. And there was a hallway hangout and you provided that link to it also with Isabel Bryson who actually worked quite a bit on that feature. And she showed off how she&#8217;s going to use it or how she worked on it and what you can do with it. I really liked the way that you could say, okay, any column that is in the grid needs to be&#8230; Or any cell that needs to have a minimum width of 300, and then it automatically flows with the screen size.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So if it&#8217;s a mobile screen, then you get them all stacked, and if it&#8217;s a tablet, you get two columns, or maybe&#8230; Nah, three is probably not wide enough. And then when you&#8217;re on the big screen you get as much as the layout of your website allows, and stack them, have three or four in a row.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So that&#8217;s really good. And it&#8217;s a responsive way to make your layouts without having to think about responsiveness. So I think that&#8217;s a great feature for users because it&#8217;s a new concept anyway, and our users that haven&#8217;t been able to create layouts or do some editing on their theme or of their headers and that, there is another jump there to make to get the concepts right. Because I think we have some anecdotal evidence that for some people it was hard to figure out are we editing a template or am I editing this particular page?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And we are then surprised when they thought they&#8217;re editing a page that it changed for the whole site. So yeah, there are now a few guardrails in the site editor. I&#8217;m not sure if there are enough, but I&#8217;m also thinking that it gets better and better the more people are using it and the more people get confused and talk about it to find the right way to do this.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And a grid layout, you don&#8217;t have to think about that much. That&#8217;s a concept that people can really adhere to or find, maybe not that hard to&#8230; I saw quite a few of those layouts where you have a stacked group block inside a grid cell and those are really cool. Or have a row inside a grid cell. And those behave really well also in the responsiveness.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I&#8217;m excited about the grid layout. I&#8217;m really waiting for a masonry grid layout that goes with the flow in every direction. I&#8217;m not sure if that&#8217;s yet available. I have the feeling they&#8217;re not, but there are some experiments that you can&#8230; If you use the Gutenberg plugin there&#8217;s an experiment page and you can switch on interactive grid layouts and do even more experiments, explorations with that feature for 6.7. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Yeah. I definitely have to go and check that out. One thing that I would like to see, I&#8217;m not saying it&#8217;s possible, I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s possible, but when you have a query loop and you have the post-template block inside of it, you have the option to select between lists and the grid. And I would like that grid option that you select in the toolbar of the post-template block to have the same type of options. So that I would be able to have&#8230; Maybe I want the second post in my query to be two rows tall, for example. I&#8217;m not sure if it&#8217;s possible.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Not yet. I had the same question.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Have all the signs for the post. Well the thing is, it&#8217;s a loop, so of course it loops through every post. I&#8217;m not sure&#8230; We&#8217;ll get to that later when we talk about the plugin, I think. Because in the query loop, of course you can&#8217;t add it. If you add a block to your post-template it&#8217;s going to be the same block, same text for whatever these posts. I&#8217;m not sure if it would be possible to have one post to be taller or wider than everyone else. Unless of course you want to go and do custom CSS, which is absolutely possible. But from the editor, I&#8217;m not sure, but I would really like that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. In the editor it&#8217;s not possible yet. I did, well many, many years ago, a layout for a news outlet that had I think six columns and the main post was three columns wide and then one was two column, one column and underneath there were six different posts that are kind of in the header section. And that&#8217;s not available yet, that you can&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> No, exactly. So if you wanted, for example, one full word sticky post you&#8217;d have to use, today you&#8217;d use custom CSS to achieve that. Or maybe you&#8217;d even have two query loops, which of course at some point it&#8217;s going to be a performance issue if you have to do it twice. But you can&#8217;t do that with the options on the block now.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. Maybe we can&#8230; One can say that the sticky post is always, I don&#8217;t know, two columns or three columns. But yeah, it&#8217;s all&#8230; Because all of a sudden everybody has a different need and then I cannot imagine the interface, how many dials. And so you could offer the user, though they have every use case in there. But yeah, we&#8217;ll see what&#8217;s going to be possible later on.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I&#8217;m thinking that that&#8217;s also a great place for plugins to extend the core blocks to use the grid block in certain ways and try that out to say, okay, what is possible and push the limits a little bit on that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Yeah. I&#8217;m sure there&#8217;s going to be responses now saying, oh, but this has existed in my plugin for three years. Awesome.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Oh, yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Sadly I have not seen it. I do not have time, there&#8217;s many page building plugins or block collections, unfortunately.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. All right. So as I said, so I think, is there anything else from WordPress 6.6 that stands out for you apart from those theme-related features?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark</em>: I&#8217;m a theme nerd. Everything is theme-related. We have the background. So the background image settings where you can now add the background image to various blocks and to the site wide Global Styles from the site editor for block themes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I have mixed feelings about this because I&#8217;m glad it is more now&#8230; It has a higher&#8230; How to say? It matches the customized settings better where you could add the background image. But I&#8217;m a little concerned that we are going to end up with these group blocks where people are adding text on top of the image and the text is not going to be readable, it&#8217;s not going to be accessible.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark: </em>We&#8217;ll see.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> I think all the design tools bring hives to some designers because they don&#8217;t think that a lot of WordPress users are good designers, so they shouldn&#8217;t have access to those tools. And I&#8217;m reminded that there was a big movement in the internet, it&#8217;s called GeoCities or MySpace, where you had all those tools already at your fingertips. And there were quite some funky signs out there. But that&#8217;s kind of the creativity that is bred when you give people tools.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> That&#8217;s when we used the tables, HMO tables to other layouts and we had the dancing baby in the diaper and more.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Chip animations, yeah. Using spacer. But we found that spacer images are coming back with the spacer block, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark: </em>Mm-hmm. Yeah, that&#8217;s interesting. So again, we are going to talk about this, about improving the block supports. So in the Gutenberg 18.8, we&#8217;re adding shadow supports for groups.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark</em>: I don&#8217;t know if I should bring this now.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> It&#8217;s your PR, right? Well let&#8217;s talk about it when we go through the Changelog and we&#8217;ll be there in about 2 minutes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Yeah. In relation to the space block, so we are now not only adding the shadow, we&#8217;re working now for the next release. To add color options and spacing options to more blocks to make it more consistent. Because we have text-based blocks. It doesn&#8217;t even have text color. One of these ideas is of course, are we going to have a background on the space block or not? That discussion might be interesting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Indeed, indeed. Because there are also some great separator blocks and spacer blocks. It&#8217;s kind of both. Yeah, right, it&#8217;s a spacer or a separator that has some design to it. And the other CSS you can do some really funky things with waves and going from triangles and that kind of thing. And different kinds of patterns, how the background shines into the next block.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I like those. I&#8217;m thinking maybe putting a plugin together with, there was a site that has a lot of separators CSS already displayed, and you can probably fairly easy, add them to a plugin so people can have an additional&#8230; So it&#8217;s a web dev separator generator, that&#8217;s called.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Yeah. Okay, interesting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack</em>: I&#8217;m going to look at that. It&#8217;s from the W Web Dev, GitHub group. So I&#8217;ll share the link in the show notes and&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Yeah, a plugin would be a good idea for that. Because it can of course be used in any theme. The problem with doing this kind of thing, like a pattern, if you wanted to do the pattern and submit it to the pattern directory, is that you can&#8217;t use custom CSS.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah. Or add it to a theme, but then it&#8217;s not going from theme to theme. Yeah. Then it&#8217;s not&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carolina Nymark: No, exactly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> It kind of goes away.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Omitted.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Birgit Pauli-Haack: Oh, right. I know that we can talk about quite a few things and we will, but today, just right now this minute, I wanted to do a side note. Because with all the features that come to developers and for no-code site builders in WordPress 6.5 and 6.6, you might not need to create a custom block to extend core functionality, that much anymore, because you could use block bindings or you could use other tools. That is not that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So on July 23rd, JuanMa Garrido and Nick Diego will hold developer hours again, and with the title Do You Really Need a Custom Block? And they will explore with you, their listeners if you want to join them, how to add new functionality to core blocks by content only editing and the allowed blocks attribute and patterns.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So a lot of people review their custom blocks if they couldn&#8217;t replace them with patterns because they don&#8217;t have to maintain so much code or integrate block bindings and block variations. Well block variations, you need a little bit more development there. When effective block blocking and naming as well as of course our latest, most favorite feature synced pattern overrides.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So July 23rd, a 1500 UTC, that will take place. It&#8217;s a live stream on Zoom and that&#8217;s 9:00 AM eastern in the US, 1500 UTC, 9:00 AM Eastern on July 23rd. And also for the same topic, there is also a developer blog post out that lists 15 ways to curate the WordPress editing experience from disabling specific blocks. So panel directory or unregistered formatting for the rich text block to disabling certain sidebar panels.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I know switching on and off for features is really important for clients and content creators, that it&#8217;s a major concern for agencies and publishers. And we talked about it earlier as well. And this post is a great snippet collection. It also points it to the right places in the documentation and there are always ways to disable custom colors and core presets in the theme JSON.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I&#8217;m sure the Full Site Editing Global Styles and theme JSON has some notes about that too. So that&#8217;s kind of about the overall WordPress experience. Do you want to comment on any of that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> I&#8217;ll try to attend. It&#8217;s sounds really like an interesting call. Yeah, I enjoyed the post about the 15 ways to security experience as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What’s Released &#8211; Gutenberg 18.8</h3>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> All right, so we&#8217;ve come to what everybody&#8217;s waiting for, is what&#8217;s Gutenberg 18.8? So 211 PRs merged into the plugin release. 57 of those were enhancements, 77 were bug fixes and 35 of those bug fixes were actually back ported to core and made it into WordPress 6.6 and were included in the release candidate three.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But that&#8217;s all snow from yesterday, as we say in Germany, badly translated of course. But it&#8217;s in 6.6. Sixty contributors worked on this release, 10 of them, again, first-time contributors, so congratulations to all. So what&#8217;s in there is a good mixture between experimental stuff, updates on UI as well as some developer stuff and of course bug fixes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the one new feature that comes in as an experiment is the data form. We know about data views. That&#8217;s how all the list views in WP admin could look. When you look at the site editor, you see how pages could look and patterns and all that, organized in new views and grid layouts and all that. But what it does not have yet is a data form component. And this is now implemented as a first prototype in the iteration process to duplicate page actions.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So there is a modal that opens up and you get a form, you have to fill that in and hit a submit button, and that is the prototype that comes in. But take a look at it, if you&#8217;re a plugin developer, you probably can already see how that works for your plugin maybe, or how that can go into the WordPress 6.7. I think it&#8217;s still an experiment though. It hasn&#8217;t been released as an official or maybe not.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> I&#8217;m not sure actually.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> No, no, it&#8217;s actually in the plugin. It&#8217;s not an experiment, any duplicate&#8230; So it&#8217;s in the duplicate action that you can see. So when would you duplicate it? You would duplicate a pattern, you would duplicate a page, you would duplicate a template. Yeah, so all these duplicate actions will use that component.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Yeah, it&#8217;ll help with the consistency and also of course make it easier to reuse these forms.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. And also have a standard way of doing forms and you don&#8217;t have to make decisions as a plugin developer on, how do I do this? Use the form. But it&#8217;s not there yet. But what is an experiment is having&#8230; So we have pages, we have patterns, we have templates, we have styles, template parts, which are our patterns, what we don&#8217;t have in the new admin section are posts.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You still have to get out and go into the WP admin to add that and you still would have to do this. But there is a PR in this release where it at least has the framework around to putting a post list into the data we use as well. This is an experiment that needs to be enabled through the experiments page of the plugin. The next thing is yes, you know all about it. Carolina, is that support for shadows for the group block. Yay. We were waiting for it. Thank you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> I received so many comments in praise for this and I&#8217;m like, okay, thank you. But sorry, this change it&#8217;s&#8230; So when you create a block support, you create these setting and the UI for it and you do that once. Because it&#8217;s the support blocks opt into it, compared to a block attribute, which normally is unique and only developed for that single block. So when you enable support on new blocks or in your plugin, you change maybe three lines of code and then you&#8217;re done.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is usually how it works. And this is how it worked for the group block shadow. It was a very simple change. We needed to do some manual testing to see about how to consider the overlap and the shadow was very long. Do we need to do something about that? And we ended up not doing anything, except labeling it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, and with the&#8230; Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark</em>: Yeah. There are some other blocks where it&#8217;s not as simple. We are discovering bugs recently, early this week, not in this plugin release, but maybe the next one or the next after that. We found that there were still some remaining styles from the list block that affected other blocks that used the list element. So that was fixed, so that&#8217;s good.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So we discovered this one when we added background color and realized, wait a minute, the background color, it&#8217;s a little bit off here. So that&#8217;s how we discovered it. So sometimes it&#8217;s very easy to do this, but I also have a pull request for adding the border to the site logo, which has been going on since Twenty Twenty Three. And that is way more complex because we have to work with a link. Without a link we have to work with a resizer, have to work with a cropping tool and so on. So that one is not merged yet. But I&#8217;m hoping to get reviews of it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack</em>: Yeah. It&#8217;s interesting to look behind the scenes, how complicated they can be. And when you think that something that is newer, because the group block is relatively new in comparison to other blocks, they fit into the architecture better because it&#8217;s a more formal architecture, that wasn&#8217;t the case earlier on. And so yeah. But thank you so much. And also looking at that. Sometimes it&#8217;s easy and sometimes it&#8217;s hard. And we do it because it&#8217;s hard, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> It&#8217;s interesting that way. It&#8217;s definitely challenging.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> And talking about some quality of life around blocks, not quality of life, but a QA around blocks. There was also an effort from quite a few developers amongst them, Maggie Cabrera, to add example snippets, two blocks, especially the query block, the post list, the excerpt block, log in log out block. So when you hover over them in the inserter that you see on the right-hand side, what kind of block is that? Some of the core blocks don&#8217;t have that and this was an oversight that has now been rectified.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so this is just going to make it a little bit more smoother and make it a little bit more consistent. The next one is&#8230; I wanted to put out is from the inserter, that the PR says, remove the dialogue behavior and that is the behavior, that when you click on things something opens up. And when you&#8217;re done, click in there. And you&#8217;re done with it, it closes automatically.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And the inserter and sometimes it&#8217;s a little bit of a harder&#8230; Was harder to use, because you had to click every time you wanted to add a block and open it up again. And now with that changed behavior you can now have it open and add multiple blocks at the same time to canvas. So this is definitely a quality of life for streamlining the workflow for creating content.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The next one is what you already mentioned, block background UI controls and have the controls move to a popover, so there&#8217;s background images. The blocks have gotten quite a few refinements in 18.8. Do you want to talk about that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> It&#8217;s a bit changed in the UI.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. It&#8217;s definitely also streamlined and consistent through the&#8230; Global Styles, you can add background to blocks through the Global Styles as well as through the blocks, properties or settings. So they also streamlined those processes. The next one I found interesting was&#8230; That&#8217;s about the group block and they had a name, they renamed the fill feature to grow and that indicated&#8230; Can you explain what that indicates?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> I read the pull request, so it&#8217;s partially to make the name a better match with the CSS functionalities behind the scenes. But it&#8217;s also about not mixing the fill in this context with the background color fill or the background image. So that&#8217;s the reason why they changed this.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Oh, yeah. So it&#8217;s easier for people to translate and not have overlap ideas about things. But it also, I think the fill only has the connotation that it&#8217;s a fixed width, to be filled. And with grow it also indicates that it grows with the blocks that come in. So when you put a bigger one in there and that grow part, that&#8217;s what those CSS is actually for. The property is called grow as well. Yeah, flex-grow. It&#8217;s for the flex CSS there. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark: </em>Yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> All right. Yeah. And then of course that&#8217;s a great thing, is we get color support for the list item. Now we can have stripes in our list. In each list item could have a different color and that is really cool. Talking about designs, can you also grade gradients around it?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> I haven&#8217;t tried it. I would definitely look. I&#8217;m looking forward to hopefully seeing some kind of border support. Because I would like to sometimes have my list items like underlined. That&#8217;s one thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> So the underlying feature is not available for lists in the inline?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark: </em>Well, I don&#8217;t necessarily want to underline text, as in it being your name.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Oh, you want the same. Yeah, you want the same link of it? Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Like the whole list item. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. So I haven&#8217;t tried it yet, but I&#8217;m going to try out the list block color support with some funky designs maybe over the weekend. It&#8217;s really cool. Then the next one is, that&#8217;s a small change, but it definitely clears up a lot of questions that came in through user support or that the justification formatting is also coming to the block toolbar in addition to that is in the sidebar because most people didn&#8217;t find it in the sidebar when they were looking for it and thought it wasn&#8217;t possible to justify a certain block or a certain series of blocks. So now it&#8217;s also available in the toolbar. That&#8217;s restricted to a few blocks I would think.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Yes. It&#8217;s largely inconsistent what&#8217;s in the toolbar and what&#8217;s in the sidebar for different blocks.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, that&#8217;s true.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> True. Let&#8217;s say if the pull request probably mentions if it&#8217;s&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> It&#8217;s definitely available for the flex box in the group log.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> I only see the post content that the group mentioned, but I don&#8217;t think that&#8230; I think that was just an example.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, it&#8217;s for the group block. I don&#8217;t know if that&#8217;s going to come to columns as well. Yeah, we need to test this. Dear listeners, we haven&#8217;t tested this little thing yet, sorry. But if you test it, send in what you think of it and how you use it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I like that these things are going to be consistently updated anyway and somebody notices it and says, okay, I&#8217;m going to fix it.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then the next item is a change in the block API. That&#8217;s more for developers. It&#8217;s very technical, but it allows a custom block developer to add a file name to the variations fields of the custom block that they&#8217;re building. So you can create a block and then you also assign variations to it. And then if you don&#8217;t want it all in the same file, you can add a file name to the variations field and then it pulls it from there. Very nifty.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Yeah. And especially now if we&#8217;re saying that the number of variations that the block has&#8230; Like the grid block, that it keeps growing. It&#8217;s definitely absolutely useful for block developers because the grid block now has four.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, just kind of thinking, but that was style variations one, not block variations. So we have a proliferation of the word variations and styles and blocks and you can mix it anywhere we want.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Yeah, block style variation, block variations. It&#8217;s very similar. Also in the interface, they&#8217;re also very closely positioned in the interface. As long as you have opened the styles panel, you can have the variation just below the block name or then the description and then you have the style variation inside the panel. Also at the very top.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. They all look the same. So if you&#8217;re a visual person, like I am. I always know where something stood in a book, I knew the page number and then where on the book. I could find it very easily. But if it&#8217;s just all the same, yeah, it&#8217;s kind of I need to&#8230; Maybe, can we have a background if something is color coded. Or can we have a shape or something like that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But it&#8217;s just a name.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> So this is not part of Gutenberg, now I&#8217;m skipping again. So of course immediately after a major list, contributors are monitoring the support forms, and of course the Gutenberg tickets and the track tickets. One of the tickets that stood out a little bit, and I&#8217;m not going to talk about the underlying, is actually the page and post, the summary, or what used to be a summary panel. And this user was supporting that. They weren&#8217;t able to find the comment settings.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Because when you look at the top of the panel now it&#8217;s links, so they&#8217;re not in separate panel anymore. And this person who just saw this for the first time probably, it wasn&#8217;t easy for them to find it. And that&#8217;s one of the changes in 6.6 that we actually haven&#8217;t discussed. Not in this call at least. People will get used to it. I don&#8217;t know if anything&#8217;s going to be moved back. I don&#8217;t think so.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Well, there was between&#8230; I&#8217;m not sure if it was from one version to the next, but I know that there was a discussion about where should the revisions panels be? Should it be under the three point options kind of thing, or where should the sticky post thing be? And of course when you know, okay, that worked, that&#8217;s there now. And I can remember that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But for the first time, the shock, oh, did it go? Yeah, where did it go? You just want to get your work done and all of a sudden these hurdles come in with a new version.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> And the featured image also moved to the very top. It&#8217;s a little bit different.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, I like that actually, because I&#8217;m always going to fear that I forget the featured image. A lot of designs are actually very visual and you have that in your post loop in the list of the block posts and there&#8217;s a featured image and you want to make sure that that&#8217;s in there. But yeah, it&#8217;s a change.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark: </em>That&#8217;s a good point. A good reminder to have it there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> But what I also like with the new workflow setting is that the number of words is right there. How many are in the post. That you only had to do three clicks to actually get to that? So in the outline tab of the list view, so you had to open up the list view, click to the outline, and then see how many words are in the post. Now you just go to the&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark: </em>So I hope that you&#8217;re all keeping your blog post at least 3000 words now, right? For SEO purposes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. And 15 blog posts make a book, right? 3000 words. Does that come from a search engine kind of quality content, needs to be 3000 words?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> It&#8217;s a lot.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, that&#8217;s a lot.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Only your most important content.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. Well, our writers on the developer blog, they&#8217;re always kind of bumping up on that number quite a bit. But that&#8217;s because we have some great code examples and explanations there and it&#8217;s always about our real world kind of example. And it takes that long to explain.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>All right, what else do we have in 18.8? We have a lot of changes in the component sections, but that&#8217;s so highly technical, about the custom select control version two. There&#8217;s a version two, dear developers. Those will be probably&#8230; If they come to a WordPress version they will be in a dev note, complete together, so you get them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Because they&#8217;re all smaller fixes that are in a bigger context. But now with the PRs it&#8217;s harder to describe what&#8217;s the bigger picture about it. So I would wait until they get into the WordPress major version where you try them out. For the block library, we have two things that we wanted to talk about. One is the aspect ratio control for image blocks in grids. That was something that was missing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Also in the hallway hangout, you saw it, that Isabel tried to get the picture into the grid and then it wouldn&#8217;t fill up the whole thing. And so now you can control the aspect ratio of those image blocks. It&#8217;s really cool. And then the other one is when I see reduced specificity, I first have a hard time pronouncing that word.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Same. I also have difficulty even trying to spell it if I take it out. Yeah, reduce specificity of the social link icon color. I believe this is a bug fix. I guess the colors were either impacting something else or were impacted by it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. And it wasn&#8217;t possible to control them. So now themes can control it. But yeah, CSS specificity was definitely a topic on the WordPress release in 6.6. And there were a few rumblings around, because for some features, theme developers fixed something that core didn&#8217;t do or needed to override. And now with 6.6, core fixed what they were doing, but then it affected what theme developers were doing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So they had to reduce certain things or revert some of the changes. But it also maybe was a little bit pushed too far with the underlined issue, the link underlined issue. And overall it was ripping off the bandaid to make section style possible, to reduce the specificity on certain CSS and have&#8230; It only affected a few theme developers that were very heavy on CSS, on style CSS still. So how did you find that change in 6.6 with your themes or you? Or in the discussion with the theme developers?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> So I spent so many hours testing these changes early on, but not through the latest release candidates. So I obviously missed many, many things. I couldn&#8217;t keep up.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Nobody&#8217;s going to fault you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark: </em>With some of the changes. I have not had time to test my websites with 6.6 or my themes. I&#8217;m just going to wait a little and not just automated upgrade. I haven&#8217;t had time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> That&#8217;s of course a good way to say, let other people find the faults. And I know that the core team is starting to work on a point release to come out somehow next week for 6.6.1 and you probably want to wait for that to update all the sites. So the release candidate is coming out I think tomorrow or today?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> I think it&#8217;s today.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> It&#8217;s today. We are recording this on July 18th. So sorry.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> That&#8217;s correct.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Just wanted to say what today is because it&#8217;s different for our listeners than it is for us.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> So today on Thursday the 18th, there are 10 fixes in this release.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Okay. All right. And in two weeks we&#8217;re going to talk about it. So synced patterns got some updates as well. The one PR ensures to disable override buttons is active for image blocks with captions or links. Because you could override the image URL and the alt text, but you couldn&#8217;t change the captions or the link that the image went to. And that is now changed.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> The part of the bug was that if you already had the original image, had a caption, and the caption setting was only visible and you replaced the image, the caption did not update and you were not able to edit it. This sort of solves that in one way, but more work is needed.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah. And that actually went into 6.6. And then the other bug fix for pattern overrides was to fix the aspect ratio with the image overrides. So it wouldn&#8217;t adhere to the aspect. When you uploaded a new image, it wouldn&#8217;t necessarily adhere to the aspect ratio that was in the original before. So that is fixed too, and made it into 6.6. Yeah, was backboard to core, yes. All right. And then we had this disabled post, meta editing and blocks, that&#8217;s one of the inside query loops to finish my sentence.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Yes. So this has to do with the synced patterns, the rights and the block bindings and it prevents bugs. Again, like with the query loop is&#8230; Again, it&#8217;s the loops. So everything you add to the inside, it&#8217;s going to be repeated and that&#8217;s why it should not be editable that way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, there was a feature there that if you needed to change post-meta for a certain block, you could do it in the query block, but that is now stopped. It&#8217;s disabled now. So there&#8217;s no confusion in overriding some. I think there were race conditions on the database for that. So that&#8217;s a good thing that it&#8217;s not on the query loop. If you want to change the metadata for a post, go to the post, do it there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Then there&#8217;s one fix there that&#8217;s just for those who use the image block for plugins. And that is that the media ID and the block HML are supported for the block bindings. But that&#8217;s just&#8230; It&#8217;s really a technical update and a bug fix for 6.6. But it had quite a few discussions there and how that&#8217;s going to be fixed. But it is fixed now.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then there are quite a few experiments and we talked about that, that grid layouts or interactive grids is one experiment in the Gutenberg plugin. And there are two features, allow inserting blocks directly into the empty grid cells, wire drag and drop, and then also use the manual placement attribute to set manual grid mode and allow responsive behavior in both modes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So in the grid layouts in 6.6, when you switch on the manual feature in the sidebar, it takes away&#8230; And you say, okay, I wanted three columns width in manual, then even your mobile version has three columns because that&#8217;s what you said in a manual grid. And now with them they allow&#8230; this is an experiment to allow certain manual grid attributes and make sure that it&#8217;s still a responsive behavior. So it&#8217;s kind of&#8230; Not quite sure if that is the right UI or the right approach.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So go there and experiment with it to see if that satisfies. Because of course it&#8217;s surprising that if you put some manual in there, I want four columns and all of a sudden you see it in mobile and it is not responsive, that that disconnect is really hard to decipher.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And Nick Diego, who was the author of the 15 Ways to Curate The Editor Experience, found a gap in the documentation and he added how the rich text formatting or switching off rich text formatting features is done for the editor curation documentation. So that&#8217;s good. And then another documentation enhancement is that the interactivity API documentation now includes a few more examples and the reference for more examples in there. So if you are trying to get your head around the interactivity, API that might be even better.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Just an announcement is CSS hacks, Internet Explorer 11 have been removed from the block editor from the Gutenberg plugin. And I don&#8217;t know how many, I think when we removed the Internet Explorer 11 support in general in WordPress, there was quite a big number of code line changes or removals. I don&#8217;t think this would amount to it. It&#8217;s probably most of the time an if than else hack. But it&#8217;s removed and it&#8217;s a clearer way to look at the CSS. All right, anything else you want to comment on for that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Fixing documentation is always awesome.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. And sometimes there&#8217;s quite a few things that need to be fixed. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Oh, yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> All right, so this concludes, dear listeners, our review of the Gutenberg Changelog for the Gutenberg 18.8 release.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What’s in Active Development or Discussed</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>So we are on the section now, what&#8217;s an active development and discussed. And I want to point out three things to you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>One is a very smaller one and that is adding color and other style options to the audio block. That is a PR or an issue right now that&#8217;s discussed on how to manage that and what is the minimum viable product on that. Do we need a featured image? Do we not use a featured image on that? But chime in on that so the developer who will take that on has your input if you to it. Of course that&#8217;s a different story, but it&#8217;s definitely good to form opinions and to make them available.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> And over time already, I guess I get a little bit excited talking about WordPress. So the audio element which is used in a block is almost impossible to style without either basically completely covering it with another element using CSS or with JavaScript. And it&#8217;s impossible to do it with just CSS. To add color options for everything around the actual audio element. Yeah, that&#8217;s an interesting approach to it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. It&#8217;s definitely something. And it&#8217;s also a&#8230; There&#8217;s another element out there like the video elements or some of the embeds that also could use some additional style options. And I think working on the audio block gives everybody a feel how that can be approached and what would be needed there. So it&#8217;s also the iteration process.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I also wanted to share with the audience a link to an experiment on free form image cropping. The image cropper is quite difficult to get your head around. And the block editor as well as in the classic editor, there is no&#8230; Both are abysmally&#8230; So there is a PR that a developer is working on. And definitely it&#8217;s still in draft so it hasn&#8217;t been even merged or full review, but it&#8217;s definitely something you want to look at and maybe you can try it out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then the biggest link that I wanted to share with you dear listener, is the updates for the media library. So the next step for the admin redesign is of course the posts, but that&#8217;s a small thing because the most things for the post everybody knows already. But the biggest one is how to rethink the media library with a new data admin. And Ramon Dodd started the process with a tracking issue and there is quite some discussion there. What else would be needed to change things or to bring over how it&#8217;s working now.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So there&#8217;s quite a discussion there that&#8217;s first interesting to see what everybody else is thinking, but also to chime in and figure out what is the first version going to look like when it comes to that media library in the new data admins.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And with that, we are at the end of the show. Thank you so much Carolina, for being on the show and letting us all know about block themes and what&#8217;s in 6.6 and what&#8217;s coming and talking about the Gutenberg&#8217;s 18.8 plugin. Is there anything that you want to announce from Yoast or for what you are working on that you didn&#8217;t get to talk about? You get about two minutes or three now.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark</em>: No, it&#8217;s okay. I work on Gutenberg when I find issues that are easy enough for me to work on. But that usually means that this looks easy and then four hours later you&#8217;re completely down a rabbit hole. I&#8217;m still trying to help out with the bundle teams triage, the bundle team task force and continue to find the problems, reporting new issues, and then we solve it together. So it&#8217;s working, mixing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Thank you so much for the great work on all of it, on what&#8217;s in WordPress and listeners, as always, the show notes will be published on Gutenbergtimes.com/podcast. This is number 104. And if you have questions and suggestions or news you want us to include, send them to <a href=\"mailto:changelog@gutenbergtimes.com\">changelog@gutenbergtimes.com</a>. That&#8217;s <a href=\"mailto:changelog@gutenbergtimes.com\">changelog@gutenbergtimes.com</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And if people want to connect with Carolina Nymark, it could be definitely on WP Slack. Your name is Poena, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>And on Twitter, it&#8217;s Carolina Poena.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark</em>: Yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> If you want to follow her on what she shares on the social media. And thank you so much for being here, Carolina, it&#8217;s always a great pleasure to have you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Thank you for inviting me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yes. And I will do so again in a few months. So I hope to see you soon. I don&#8217;t know on any of the WordCamps, I don&#8217;t know, you&#8217;re going to go to Rome to the Core days? Or what&#8217;s your next WordCamp?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Undecided.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Undecided. Yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Maybe Rome or maybe not until the next WordCamp.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, I&#8217;m undecided too, so I&#8217;m kind of&#8230; We&#8217;ll see. Yeah. And if not, we see each other on the interwebs.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Carolina Nymark:</em> Oh, yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>And take care. Bye-Bye.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sun, 21 Jul 2024 09:44:13 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:18:\"Birgit Pauli-Haack\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:26;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:20:\"Matt: Jim Simons RIP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=114897\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:37:\"https://ma.tt/2024/07/jim-simons-rip/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4072:\"<p>As I wrote the other day, <a href=\"https://ma.tt/2024/06/cowen-life-lessons/\">don’t constrain your mentors by their availability</a>. Today, I’d like to highlight someone I consider a mentor, who I’ve never met, and now that he’s passed away, I never will, Jim Simons. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>I’m mildly obsessed with the culture and results of <a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_Technologies\">Renaissance Technologies</a>, <a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Street_Capital\">Jane Street</a>, <a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jump_Trading\">Jump Trading</a>, and <a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Sigma\">Two Sigma</a> because I’d like to create the tech and infrastructure version of that at <a href=\"https://automattic.com/\">Automattic</a>. Jim Simons reminds me of my Dad, who also never quit smoking and was super-smart. Finally, I love finding obscure YouTube videos with few views but full of great stuff.</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n\n</div>\n\n\n\n<p>In December, 2010, <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVdTF4_QrTM\">Jim Simons gave a lecture at MIT called Mathmetics, Common Sense, and Good Luck: My Life and Careers</a>. The entire thing, including the introductions, is worth watching, but I’ll call out&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Do something new. (This ties well with <a href=\"https://kottke.org/24/03/dont-be-the-best-be-the-only\">Kevin Kelly’s &#8220;Don’t be the best. Be the only&#8221;</a>.)</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Collaborate with the best people you possibly can.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Be guided by beauty.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Don’t give up.&nbsp;</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Hope for some good luck.</li>\n</ol>\n\n\n\n<p>I want to pull out point three, and transcribe directly what he said because it’s quite profound:</p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Pretty much everything I’ve done has had an aesthetic component, at least to me. Now you might think, well, building a company that’s trading bonds, what’s so aesthetic about that? But it is. What’s aesthetic about it is doing it right. Doing it right. Getting the right kind of people and approaching the problem and doing it right and if you feel like you feel like you’re the first one to do it right and I think we were, that’s a terrific feeling and it’s a beautiful thing to do something right. It’s also a beautiful thing to solve a math problem create some mathematics that people hadn’t thought of before, so “Be guided by beauty” is not such a bad principle.</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>If there’s something I’d add, it’s that there is an art to imitation, copying the masters to further your own work. In jazz, we’d transcribe solos from great musicians, note for note, and try to recreate them perfectly, not because that was what we were going to do when we got on stage, but because that understanding and foundation gave us the mastery to take that work and build on top of it. I think this is also true in open source, which often starts by recreating something that exists in the proprietary world but then goes far beyond.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>While Renaissance has its Medallion Fund, Automattic has its A12 stock program, which only employees can access. Both programs share the same idea, and if we’re lucky, A12 will create a ton of wealth over time—I love that a third of RenTech&#8217;s employees are registered as having assets of over 5M.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>He also lists these points as creating alignment for a great organization:</p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Great people.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Great infrastructure.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Open environment.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Try to get everyone compensated based on the overall performance.</li>\n</ol>\n\n\n\n<p>That last point is the hardest. <a href=\"https://www.danpink.com/books/drive/\">Dan Pink&#8217;s book Drive</a> has a great overview of how it&#8217;s very difficult to align extrinsic incentive models. This post is a birthday <a href=\"https://ma.tt/2024/01/birthday-gift/\">gift</a> to <a href=\"https://tim.blog/\">Tim</a>.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sat, 20 Jul 2024 23:55:20 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:27;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:135:\"Gutenberg Times: WordPress 6.6 and 6.6.1,  drop shadow for Group block, alternatives to custom blocks and more —  Weekend Edition 300\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:35:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/?p=29356\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:71:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-6-6-and-6-6-1-weekend-edition-300/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:18029:\"<p>Hi there, </p>\n\n\n<div width=\"100%\" class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-showhide ng-block\"><div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<img width=\"652\" height=\"913\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/GutenbergTimes-Wappuu-2024-edited-731x1024.png?resize=652%2C913&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-29416\" /></div></div>\n\n\n<p>The wonderful designer, <a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/ACoAAABe3aMBPiET2CcJowGP3RVNLLZ4BuT2Rfk\">Eleonora Anzini</a>, gifted the Gutenberg Times with a Wapuu, the unofficial mascot of WordPress. Anzini has been a strong supporter for <a href=\"https://europe.wordcamp.org/2024/organisers/#design-team\">WordCamp Europe 2024</a> as well as the upcoming Core Days 2024 in Rome, Italy. You can find out <a href=\"https://www.eleonoraanzini.com/\">more about Anzini at her website</a>. Isn&#8217;t the Wapuu cute with its headphones?   Big Thank you to Eleonora Anzini. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>What do you think? If you like it and email me your mailing address, I&#8217;ll find a way to get you a Gutenberg Times Podcast Wapuu sticker. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Have a great weekend! </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yours, 💕<br /><em>Birgit</em></p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-light-background-background-color has-background\"><div class=\"wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-flow wp-block-group-is-layout-flow\">\n<p><strong>Table of Contents</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<ol><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-6-6-and-6-6-1-weekend-edition-300/#0-word-press-release-information\">Developing Gutenberg and WordPress</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-6-6-and-6-6-1-weekend-edition-300/#gutenberg-18-8\">Gutenberg 18.8</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-6-6-and-6-6-1-weekend-edition-300/#what-others-write-and-say-about-wordpress-6-6\">What others write and say about WordPress 6.6 </a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-6-6-and-6-6-1-weekend-edition-300/#2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled\">Theme Development for Full Site Editing and Blocks</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-6-6-and-6-6-1-weekend-edition-300/#3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press\">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor. </a></li></ol>\n</div></div>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"0-word-press-release-information\">Developing Gutenberg and WordPress</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Within a few days of the WordPress 6.6, the team of core contributors, started working on 6.6.1 release to fix fast some bugs around CSS specificity. The release post for the RC1 has all the info. The release is led by Tonya Mork and Ella van Durpe. <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/18/wordpress-6-6-1-rc1-is-now-available/\"><strong>WordPress&nbsp;6.6.1&nbsp;RC1 is now available</strong></a>. It fixes a few CSS specificity bugs, that plagued Divi Sites, and other Theme builders. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>You can check out WordPress 6.6 without downloaded the version via the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/download/releases/6-6/\"><strong>WordPress 6.6 release landing page.</strong></a> </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>WordPress 6.6 was actually the <strong>50th major WordPress release.</strong> <strong>Matt Mullenweg </strong><a href=\"https://ma.tt/2024/07/6-6/\">wrote on his blog</a>: &#8220;50 releases… wow. No matter what happens in the world, we’re just going to keep cranking. Three times a year. Relentlessly. A little better each time. Don’t believe me, just watch.&#8221; </p>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://wordpress.org/download/releases/6-6/\"><img src=\"blob:https://gutenbergtimes.com/7d13ecca-ec3e-4f95-aea2-dc42bad9021c\" alt=\"\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"gutenberg-18-8\">Gutenberg 18.8</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>211 PRs merged, 57 Enhancements, 77 Bug Fixes, 35 of them were backported to Core, and made it into WordPress 6.6 and included in the RC 3.&nbsp;60 contributors worked on this release, 10 of them were first time contributors. Congratulations to all! </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Release lead, <strong>Andrew Serong</strong>, highlighted in his release post <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/17/whats-new-in-gutenberg-18-8-17-july/\"><strong>What’s new in Gutenberg 18.8 (17 July)</strong></a>: </p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/17/whats-new-in-gutenberg-18-8-17-july/#group-block-shadow-support\">Group block shadow support</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/17/whats-new-in-gutenberg-18-8-17-july/#background-image-support-for-blocks-in-global-styles\">Background image support for blocks in global styles</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/17/whats-new-in-gutenberg-18-8-17-july/#toolbar-justification-controls-for-group-and-content-blocks\">Toolbar justification controls for Group and Content blocks</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/17/whats-new-in-gutenberg-18-8-17-july/#color-support-for-individual-list-item-blocks\">Color support for individual list item blocks</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/17/whats-new-in-gutenberg-18-8-17-july/#block-inserter-no-longer-behaves-like-a-dialog-box\">Block inserter no longer behaves like a dialog box</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/17/whats-new-in-gutenberg-18-8-17-july/\"><img width=\"652\" height=\"376\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/gb-18-8-group-shadow.png?resize=652%2C376&ssl=1\" alt=\"Sreenshot of the new drop shadow tools in WordPress 6.6\" class=\"wp-image-29407\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Carolina Nymark</strong> and I chatted quite a bit about other updates in the Gutenberg 18.8 version. Also, what we find exciting about WordPress 6.6 and what&#8217;s in the works for WordPress 6.7 in November. The episode will arrive at your favorite podcast app over the weekend. </p>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"652\" height=\"186\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Screenshot-2024-07-19-at-12.07.05.png?resize=652%2C186&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-29410\" />\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-accent-color has-light-background-background-color has-text-color has-background has-link-color wp-elements-d93781e1cc752a3c931d2fecfcf49569\">🎙️ Latest episode: <a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-104-block-themes-gutenberg-18-8/\">Gutenberg Changelog #104 – Block Themes, Gutenberg 18.8, WordPress 6.6</a> with special guest Carolina Nymark</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>In his 60th <strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/design/2024/07/15/design-share-60-jul-1-jul-12/\">Design Share #60 (Jul 1 – Jul 12)</a>,</strong> <strong>Joen Asmussen</strong>, summarized about the work of the WordPress Design team. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>It mostly was around the Data Views to adjust display to changing and expanding needs. </p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Improving&nbsp;Filter&nbsp;UX</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Consolidate bulk actions </li>\n\n\n\n<li>Drag to resize for display panels</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>With many layers of design being modified in themes, global styles, block styles and plugins, there is a need to make sure users can identify where versions styling comes from. The work on visualizing style inheritance is ongoing. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>The design team also work on handling the increasing complexities around the Placeholder component used in blocks and block variations. Speaking of core blocks: a collaboration to advance the Audio block has been sketched out, to give content creator more design options for the various parts.  It&#8217;s ready for a developer to implement the designs. Lastly, the design team also work on the WordPress logo page in context of the redesign of wordpress.org. </p>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/design/2024/07/15/design-share-60-jul-1-jul-12/\"><img src=\"blob:https://gutenbergtimes.com/02067ca2-c13d-4246-bf20-aaf5403b6062\" alt=\"\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"what-others-write-and-say-about-wordpress-6-6\">What others write and say about WordPress 6.6 </h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Pascal Claro</strong> at WP Roads covers the WordPress 6.6 release in his video: <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CPBr8CWyAU\"><strong>WordPress 6.6 New Features</strong></a> and offers great demos of Grid layouts, synch patterns, DataViews and the 10 other features. If you are a visual learner, you&#8217;d appreciate the detailed and fast-paced screen shares . They give you a meaninful insights in the how and why you would use any of the features. I am a fan of the little grid layout section creating a bento-box layout. </p>\n\n\n<div width=\"100%\" class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-showhide ng-block\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"toolbelt-video-wrapper\"></div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>In this video, <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU4ikiAzZ-Y\"><strong>WordPress 6.6 negative margins</strong></a>, <strong>Elliot Richmond</strong> shows you how to create stunning, responsive layouts using the Group Block, Columns, and Cover Block to add depth and visual interest in adjusting margins. &#8220;The designer in you will love this subtle but powerful addition to WordPress 6.6&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Courtney Robertson</strong>, training team member and sponsored contributor by GoDaddy published <a href=\"https://www.godaddy.com/resources/news/whats-new-in-wordpress-6-6-key-features-and-updates\"><strong>What’s new in WordPress 6.6: Key features and updates</strong></a>. Robertson divided up the information into sections for End users, Theme developer, plugin developers and Site admins and enterprise users. So you as a reader can drill down directly to the passage most relevant to you. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Keith Devon</strong> and <strong>Mark Wilkinson</strong> talk through the <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIB3VyMIW9U\"><strong>WordPress 6.6 release</strong></a> in their podcast episode 95.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>My friend, <strong>Varun Dubey</strong>, Contributor to Buddy Press, gives you a detailed look at <a href=\"https://vapvarun.com/whats-coming-in-wordpress-6-6-a-detailed-look/\"><strong>What’s Coming in WordPress 6.6: A Detailed Look</strong></a>. &#8220;Whether you are a developer, site administrator, or regular user, these updates will make managing and customizing your WordPress site more accessible and efficient.&#8221; he wrote. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>In his video, <strong>Matt Medeiros</strong> asked <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yYNJ3l51yI\"><strong>WordPress 6.6 is here! Now what?!</strong></a> and takes a deep dive into Synced pattern overrides and Grid layouts. I learned that WordPress 6.6 is also the first WordPress release with credits for three dudes named Matt.</p>\n\n\n<div width=\"100%\" class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-showhide ng-block\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"toolbelt-video-wrapper\"></div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" />\n\n\n\n<p>If you rather read and quick updates, <a href=\"https://yoast.com/about-us/team/camille-cunningham/\">Camille Cunningham</a> at Yoast published <a href=\"https://yoast.com/wordpress-6-6/\"><strong>WordPress 6.6: The 6 highlights in this release!</strong></a> and gives you a nice overview of those highlights. </p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled\">Theme Development for Full Site Editing and Blocks</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Fränk Klein</strong> ruminated in his latest blog post the question: <a href=\"https://wpdevelopment.courses/articles/do-block-themes-still-need-style-css/\"><strong>Do block themes still need style.css?</strong></a> While the existence of the style.css is still needed with the metadata of a theme for WordPress, it can be empty for block themes. As Klein wrote: &#8220;<code>style.css</code>, on the other hand, represents the&nbsp;<strong>best practices of the days past</strong>. Let’s look at these and why they are no longer adequate&#8221; Details in <a href=\"https://wpdevelopment.courses/articles/do-block-themes-still-need-style-css/\">his post</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>&nbsp;<a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">&#8220;Keeping up with Gutenberg &#8211; Index 2024&#8221;</a>&nbsp;</strong><br />A chronological list of the WordPress Make Blog posts from various teams involved in Gutenberg development: Design, Theme Review Team, Core Editor, Core JS, Core CSS, Test, and Meta team from Jan. 2024 on. Updated by yours truly. The previous years are also available: <strong><strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2020/\">2020</a>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2021/\">2021</a></strong>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2022/\">2022</a></strong></strong>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/gutenberg-index-2023\">2023</a></strong></p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press\">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor. </h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Alex Lende</strong> published <a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2024/07/19/json-schema-in-wordpress/\"><strong>JSON Schema in WordPress</strong></a> &#8211; a tutorial on what JSON is how you can set up your development environment to take advantage of the standard and how you use the various JSON properties in modern WordPress development. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>Save the date for July 23 at 15:00 UTC <a href=\"https://www.meetup.com/learn-wordpress-online-workshops/events/301860423/\"><strong>Developer Hours: Do you really need a custom block? Let’s explore alternatives</strong></a>. Explore with JuanMa Garrido and Nick Diego, alternatives to building custom block, and still be able to extend core blocks and curate the editing experience for your content creators. </p>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://www.meetup.com/learn-wordpress-online-workshops/events/301860423/\"><img width=\"600\" height=\"338\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/600_521958647-1.webp?resize=600%2C338&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-29430\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong><a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/need-a-zip-from-master/\">Need a plugin .zip from Gutenberg&#8217;s master branch?</a></strong><br />Gutenberg Times provides daily build for testing and review. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now also available via <a href=\"https://playground.wordpress.net/?blueprint-url=https://gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/playnightly.json\">WordPress Playground</a>. There is no need for a test site locally or on a server. Have you been using it? <a href=\"mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com\">Email me </a>with your experience</p>\n\n\n\n<p><img alt=\"GitHub all releases\" src=\"https://img.shields.io/github/downloads/bph/gutenberg/total?style=for-the-badge\" /></p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center has-small-font-size\"><em>Questions? Suggestions? Ideas? </em><br /><em>Don&#8217;t hesitate to send <a href=\"mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com\">them via email</a> or</em><br /><em> send me a message on WordPress Slack or Twitter @bph</em>.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" />\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center has-small-font-size\">For questions to be answered on the <a href=\"http://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast\">Gutenberg Changelog</a>, <br />send them to <a href=\"mailto:changelog@gutenbergtimes.com\">changelog@gutenbergtimes.com</a></p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>Featured Image: <em>Geometric wooden block sculpture</em> by Johnious Tumusiime, found at WordPress.org/photos. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-left\"><strong>Don&#8217;t want to miss the next Weekend Edition? </strong></p>\n\n\n<form class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-form ngl-form ngl-portrait\" action=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/feed/\" method=\"post\"><div class=\"ngl-form-container\"><div class=\"ngl-form-field\"><label class=\"ngl-form-label\" for=\"ngl_email\"><br />Type in your Email address to subscribe.</label><div class=\"ngl-form-input\"><input type=\"email\" class=\"ngl-form-input-text\" name=\"ngl_email\" id=\"ngl_email\" /></div></div><button type=\"submit\" class=\"ngl-form-button\">Subscribe</button><p class=\"ngl-form-text\">We hate spam, too, and won&#8217;t give your email address to anyone <br />except Mailchimp to send out our Weekend Edition</p></div><div class=\"ngl-message-overlay\"><div class=\"ngl-message-svg-wrap\"></div><div class=\"ngl-message-overlay-text\">Thanks for subscribing.</div></div><input type=\"hidden\" name=\"ngl_list_id\" id=\"ngl_list_id\" value=\"26f81bd8ae\" /><input type=\"hidden\" name=\"ngl_double_optin\" id=\"ngl_double_optin\" value=\"yes\" /></form>\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity is-style-wide\" />\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sat, 20 Jul 2024 04:29:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:18:\"Birgit Pauli-Haack\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:28;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"Matt: WordCamp Europe\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=116386\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:38:\"https://ma.tt/2024/06/wordcamp-europe/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:480:\"<p>In Torino / Turin this year I decided to give a slightly different talk than normal, <a href=\"https://ma.tt/2024/05/wp21/\">building on my post I did for WordPress turning 21</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n\n</div>\n\n\n\n<p>And here&#8217;s the Q&amp;A, where I got challenged and accepted to do a speed build. <img src=\"https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f642.png\" alt=\"🙂\" class=\"wp-smiley\" /></p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n\n</div>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Fri, 19 Jul 2024 12:30:02 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:29;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:80:\"Do The Woo Community: Headless WooCommerce and WordPress with Darko Svetolikovic\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=84689\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:79:\"https://dothewoo.io/headless-woocommerce-and-wordpress-with-darko-svetolikovic/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:26205:\"<div class=\"wp-block-group has-border-color has-light-gray-background-color has-background has-small-font-size has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-38 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p class=\"has-secondary-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-9acf640b7ba38a84a982fc35d618387f\">This show is sponsored by&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-vertical is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-37 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-8 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-36 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-base-background-color has-background wp-container-content-15 has-global-padding is-content-justification-left is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-35 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<img width=\"600\" height=\"600\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/dothewoo.io/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/GoDaddy-square.png?resize=600%2C600&ssl=1\" alt=\"GoDaddy\" class=\"wp-image-75131\" />\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-container-content-16\"> <strong><a href=\"https://godaddy.com\">GoDaddy</a></strong>: Build your clients sites using the flexibility of a <strong>Managed WooCommerce Store from GoDaddy</strong>. If you clients are looking to expand their store, you can deliver them a fully-customized WooCommerce site.</p>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\nEpisode Transcript\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p>Robert:<br />Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another Do the Woo AgencyChat. It is my great pleasure to have Darko here from IntellRocket. Darko, welcome to the show.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />Hi Robert. Thank you for having me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />Darko, tell us more about IntellRocket and yourself please.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />Yeah, thank you. So I am Darko Svetolikovic, which is hard to pronounce even in Serbian. I come from Serbia and I&#8217;m the founder of IntellRocket, which is a WordPress agency specializing in WordPress and WooCommerce development for more than a decade. Currently, we&#8217;re certified web experts and have extensive experience in building custom WordPress websites and WooCommerce stores. I can say that we&#8217;re trying to build beautiful websites, but that&#8217;s not something you can be objective about. What&#8217;s nice and what&#8217;s beautiful is subjective. However, where you can be objective is that we build websites that are really fast. So, high-performance website projects where we guarantee that our custom builds will pass core web vitals. Why is that important? Because Core Web Vitals is a ranking signal. It means that your website is fast and produces a good user experience. Clients come to us asking for some crazy implementations, so we do that, create implementations from the technical side, and usually, those kinds of projects come with custom API integration.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />Don&#8217;t spoil it yet, don&#8217;t spoil it yet because we&#8217;re going to get to it. Before we jump into the next sort of little bit here, I have to say there is a huge Serbian WordPress community and it&#8217;s very impressive.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />Well, I see some people only at WordCamps. We live in the same city, but if there&#8217;s no WordPress meetup or something like that, we don&#8217;t see each other. And then I see them only at WordCamps, WordCamp Europe, or WordCamps across Europe. So yeah, there is a huge, huge community here. We hosted WordCamp 2018. I think it was WordCamp Europe in Belgrade, 2018 or 2019, I&#8217;m not sure.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />Yeah, so that&#8217;s very impressive.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />We have a huge community here, and I suppose that is something that is driving WordPress. So it&#8217;s not only the Serbian community; it&#8217;s communities across the globe.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />I completely agree. It was actually really nice to see the Serbian community specifically having their little side meetups and things going on at WordCamps Europe. Nice group of folks. To get back to all the agency-important information, of course. You&#8217;ve mentioned performance as a key metric, not only for Core Web Vitals but for other, I guess, experience-related issues or experiences, period. What has IntellRocket done differently than other agencies around that performance question?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />Well, it&#8217;s not that we&#8217;re doing something different. We&#8217;re focused on building websites that are fast and performant. We really dive deep into how WordPress operates, how everything functions, how everything works. So we try to optimize and make it better. And because of that, I can say those are performance-related things. I think I&#8217;m passionate about performance since I started my business and my agency work. I&#8217;m not a developer, so I don&#8217;t have that experience related to technical things, but I can say I have some good people on my team who are willing to do what I ask them to do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />So I want to dig into why that&#8217;s important for you, but also why it&#8217;s important for agencies as a whole to be looking at performance as a metric and specifically beyond hosting. Because every host is going to say they&#8217;re the fastest, the best. We know the story. So why should agencies specifically be looking to target performance? How can they do that better?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />So about performance, of course, hosting is important, but if you have a well-coded website, then the hosting will be important but not that much. If you have a huge website that&#8217;s not optimized well, you&#8217;ll spend a fortune on hosting for that website to have good performance. So I would say everything is important: good code, good structure, good hosting. I&#8217;m passionate about performance. So because of that, I started working on performance. But 10 years ago, technologies were different. That&#8217;s when that passion started. And then we started working on improving websites. So why should agencies care, or why should businesses care? Because that helps user experience. A fast website helps with conversion rates. Then that helps with revenue, that helps with profit margins. So I have a case where we worked on a client who was paying for Google Ads but didn&#8217;t have an optimized website. So we started optimizing that website, and they were investing in PPC at that moment. Their website was, for example, let&#8217;s say third in Google, first, second, third ad is like the third place. And then when we optimized the website for the same budget, this client had, let&#8217;s say, a second position, and the cost per click reduced, for example, just for this case from $1 to 0.8. So they had 20% more traffic for the same budget. So that improved their Google Ads score. They got like 20% more clicks for the same money, but then that traffic landed on their website. And because the website was faster, they had a 20% better conversion rate. So 20% more traffic multiplied by 20% better conversion rate. They ended up increasing their profit by about 35%. That is why it&#8217;s important. It&#8217;s affecting your revenue in a short period. So it&#8217;s easy to test. With SEO, it&#8217;s harder because it takes more time to see what&#8217;s affecting your website. I would say agencies that are doing SEO or marketing should care about performance. Even though I know what is happening in real life because it&#8217;s not possible for most companies to achieve that. Of course, other work is important, but if you isolate all of this, I would say it can make a significant difference.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />That&#8217;s a really interesting and good point about Google AdWords being affected by performance. When you tackle performance issues, are you tackling them at the front end, the backend? Where is that really making the biggest difference?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />We&#8217;re trying everything. So, of course, we analyze the backend use. I don&#8217;t know how the tools are called, but we analyze every query monitor, I think. So we analyze everything in the backend and how everything is working, but also we use code that is optimized. So even without caching, without anything, we tend to make fast websites. And then on top of that, we add caching, JavaScript, minification, all those things. But we make websites that are fast without any caching. We add caching in order to reduce resource spending and all of that. We try to make it fast from scratch. We try everything that we see from the backend, we will resolve it. Everything that puts me on the front end, we will try to resolve. Some things are possible, some things are hard, some things are not possible because you have some scripts you cannot handle. External scripts like Google Analytics and those kinds of things. And then those sometimes appear in the report. But we have also websites where we were adding 200 different Google events and those websites passed Core Web Vitals. So it&#8217;s not about Google Analytics slowing down the website.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />And you mentioned building, I&#8217;ll say it, custom front ends, and obviously you do a lot of work with WooCommerce. So I have to say it&#8217;s something unique I haven&#8217;t seen in any of our regular Do the Woo AgencyChats. Let&#8217;s dive into what you&#8217;re calling headless WooCommerce.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />So as I said, the passion about SEO, the passion about performance, and also API in the backend, all that was a solid foundation for starting something that is called headless WordPress or headless WooCommerce. How it explains headless, but in essence, that is JAMstack or headless, WordPress, headless website, headless WooCommerce, JAMstack e-commerce. Those are the terms. So it represents that you separate the front end from the backend. The backend is running on its own server. You use the API from the backend to send all the necessary information. And then the frontend is independently hosted. This simplifies the frontend and the backend because you don&#8217;t have in the traditional stacks, you visit the website, the visitor comes to your website, you ask the backend, then it asks the database, it responds with something, and you get the front end. With a headless setup, you have most of the time everything pre-rendered, so the content is ready, and you instantly get the response of the page you&#8217;re trying to get, which then reduces the time to get the information, and you get it much faster. So it just helps you build a super fast website, so you can have an instantly loading website across the globe. So it&#8217;s not about your local market. It&#8217;s possible to target a global market and have this instant website loading across the globe, which is good for international businesses. For example, startups, SaaS companies that don&#8217;t know where they will sell. As a SaaS company, you don&#8217;t know where your customers can come from. So you need to have a website that is loading fast in different markets. If you&#8217;re targeting specifically, you can have a host server in that state or country. Of course, you can have CloudFlare on top, you can have caching, you can have everything with a traditional type, which will help you, but it won&#8217;t help for the first visitor. So again, if you have different users from different markets, and for example, we&#8217;re in Serbia, but our clients are in the US, and we host a website in Serbia, then our client from, let&#8217;s say, California will get our website loading the first time slower than the second client or the second time he visits our website. He&#8217;ll get it faster, but will he visit our website a second time if the first visit was like</p>\n\n\n\n<p>ten seconds? Probably not. And then if you&#8217;re targeting California, then the second visit is okay, but what if you have a visitor from Washington or New York? You cannot be ready for all that. And then on top of that caching, you should have some pinging servers, something like that. And you cannot be sure completely what is possible with a headless setup. It&#8217;s possible to have instant loading across the globe. I can say we recently did some tests for our client, and we had the results. So they had a custom-coded website, so their website on 4G was loading something around three seconds, which is good on average, across five continents. So the website was on average loading within three seconds, something like 2.98. But then we tested on our other client that is using headless, and they have results which are 1.4 seconds average across the same locations.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />So twice as fast.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />Yeah. So 1.4 seconds is super fast.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />So my question is, and I&#8217;ve had this conversation about just regular, regular and both headless WordPress, I assume budgets are a little higher and time to develop is a little higher than just spinning up a regular WooCommerce. Would that be fair to say, or have you guys optimized it?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />There are challenges like that. If we are talking about standard e-commerce, standard WooCommerce, I don&#8217;t think that costs too much. But usually, businesses that go to a headless setup have custom API integrations, have ERP in the backend, have CRM, and have several other marketing tools integrated into their setup currently, and they want to make a switch to headless. So they&#8217;re like big businesses. They&#8217;re not starting from scratch. Initially, you need a lot of things to be integrated and tailored to their needs, and that is why it usually costs a lot. But even with a traditional stack, that still costs a lot because you have a lot of different things that need to be connected, and that is something that affects the price. But what is positive about the headless is that if they go into a headless setup, they can save money on hosting, they can improve user experience, they can improve scalability. The flexibility is huge. You can adjust your website to do whatever you imagine it to do. So there are no limitations.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />And that website can be a mobile app as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />And yeah, you can use WooCommerce as a database, but usually in those setups, WooCommerce is not a database. ERP is a database, but you have WooCommerce to control the content. You can control that content, which can go to e-commerce. For example, we have a client who asked us to do something with categories in WooCommerce. They have a product page, and they want to have dynamically generated content. So they go and click some product filters, let&#8217;s say it&#8217;s a clothing e-commerce website. They go to categories, click outdoor, and then go to sneakers, and select under $100. They click all that in filters and get a dynamically generated page that says sneakers up to 100. Under that, they have &#8220;check our sneakers offering that is perfect for outdoor activities and less than $100.&#8221; That can be the product page title and subtitle. When you change from outdoor to indoor, you get a different URL with sneakers for up to 100 for indoor activities. All those URLs for Google are indexable from one setup. You can have hundreds of pages that all get indexed in Google and get you real traffic. You&#8217;re offering a great user experience to your users because they see the title, the description, it&#8217;s in the meta description. So everything is done on an advanced level, which is not possible with a traditional stack. It&#8217;s not about WordPress WooCommerce, it&#8217;s not possible on any technology. With headless, you can do this. The time you save in content population or administrating those pages is where you save a lot of money, and your return on investment is bigger, the bigger the brand you are.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />I guess tying it to the original question, this isn&#8217;t for everyone, it&#8217;s not going to be for a freelancer selling their own t-shirts necessarily. It&#8217;s really for, I&#8217;ll use enterprise loosely, but a business where revenue and performance really do matter. Would that be fair to say?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />Yeah. In the e-commerce space, it&#8217;s important for businesses that are across one country or one state that do business across one continent, I would say. They can have a bigger return on investment. Also, businesses that are entering the e-commerce space and want to compete with bigger players. Bigger players are hard to make that switch. It&#8217;s expensive, it&#8217;s time-consuming, and they don&#8217;t know if that will work. But smaller players who want a piece of the cake can get that piece much faster if they go into some technology like this. They can win some positions in Google, they can win more clicks on Google ads for the same money. I would say it&#8217;s important, but with smaller businesses, the budget can be smaller. You can build a good solution and then scale faster because it&#8217;s scalable. You can add more. The backend can be independent of the front end, so you can add more things in the front end, but also you can scale your backend while the front end is the same.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />One point I want to make sure we don&#8217;t miss is obviously we&#8217;ve mentioned performance, SEO, SEM, all the acronyms, security.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />Well, security with this setup is on another level. This is like, as I said, you have this decoupled architecture. Your front end and backend are completely separated, and because of that, you have a front end that is more secure by just, most of the time, having only read-only access. So you get the API and show the data and details. It&#8217;s not possible to write something in. The front end is on a completely different server, and you pull the data from the API from some ERP, so everything is shown on the website. Because of this architecture, it&#8217;s more secure. The backend can be hidden from users and accessed only by some security protocols. Because of that, users or malicious users cannot access your backend. This is just one layer on top. You still need to protect your WordPress and your WooCommerce, but this is one layer on top which prevents users from getting access to your backend.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />I&#8217;ve seen that in WordPress where you&#8217;re drafting more static pages and obviously security is greatly improved by that, by having fewer vectors of attack.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />Yeah, the attack surface is reduced, so it&#8217;s not impossible, but it&#8217;s harder. Nothing is impossible. If someone invests a lot of time in something, they can do it from the application side or the hosting side. So nothing can be 100% sure and secure. Working on improvements all the time is important. For example, for all our backend activities, we have by default enabled two-factor authentication for all our users. We have two-factor authentication for every password that is shared. So we take care of security internally and even on the website level. Customers need to take care of their security too. Keep passwords in their password manager, have their users use two-factor authentication, force them to use a mobile app where they have two-factor authentication set up, not just in the password manager. But in the end, it&#8217;s the responsibility of all parties involved.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />Without a doubt. As we all know, security is always more and more important because there&#8217;s more money, there&#8217;s more personally identifiable information, all the problems that occur, and that&#8217;ll always improve at both ends. I&#8217;m more curious, of course, I have to say the AI word. What does the future of headless WooCommerce or WooCommerce in general with AI look like?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />Well, I think if you use it to do some things better, if you write… sometimes I play with AI, so sometimes…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />Oh, we all do, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />It&#8217;s so annoying chatting with ChatGPT or anything. It&#8217;s not AI yet, they&#8217;re trying to sell us that as AI. But I think if you use it for some, there&#8217;s some good applications, and it depends on how you set up your store to improve your operations. You can use it for data entry or some operational things, freeing up people to do more complex tasks. AI currently isn&#8217;t capable of doing some super-advanced things, so we still need people. What&#8217;s the future of WooCommerce with AI? This doesn&#8217;t have too much to do with WooCommerce. Headless WooCommerce is the same. I would say that you can, for example, probably, the thing that I explained about product categories, you could generate content on those pages based on some filters. If you get personal details about users, it&#8217;s more likely for them to like that content in order to click the product they want to buy, let&#8217;s say something like that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />No, that&#8217;s fantastic. I know everyone&#8217;s looking at figuring out how they can use AI. I like how you actually very much said LLMs are not AIs. That&#8217;s a really good point. I think people forget that. I&#8217;m curious how upgrades in translations will affect especially multinational WooCommerce sites. I think that&#8217;ll be interesting to see how that comes to pass, since I know that&#8217;s sort of on Matt Mullenweg&#8217;s WordPress timeline.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />I think if you reach some limits inside your WooCommerce, it&#8217;s important to know that there is an option to go with headless because then you don&#8217;t have those limitations. I haven&#8217;t reached those limitations with the headless websites we&#8217;ve built so far.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />That&#8217;s fantastic. Darko, how can folks connect with you and learn more about getting started with headless WordPress?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />For those interested in headless WordPress or headless WooCommerce, they can find our website at IntellRocket.com. They can find us on LinkedIn, they can find me on LinkedIn, and they can just reach out, ask what they&#8217;re curious about, and we can provide them with a consultation or anything they need.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />Darko, thank you so much. It was great to learn about your perspectives, especially about headless WooCommerce.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Darko:<br />Thank you, Robert. Thank you for having me on this podcast, and I hope we&#8217;ll see each other at some WordCamps.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />Absolutely. And that&#8217;s another Do the Woo AgencyChat. Thank you. Thank you.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n\n<p>In today&#8217;s <strong>Woo AgencyChat</strong>, host <strong>Robert Jacobi</strong> talks with <strong>Darko Svetolikovic, founder of IntellRocket</strong>. Listen in as they explore the importance of website performance, the benefits of a headless WooCommerce build, and even a bit of AI. </p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Takeaways</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>The importance of website performance</strong>: Darko emphasizes that fast-loading websites are crucial for user experience, conversion rates, and overall business profitability. He highlights that optimizing both the front end and back end is essential to achieve high performance.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Benefits of headless WooCommerce</strong>: Darko explains the concept of headless WooCommerce, where the front end and back end are separated. This setup allows for faster, more scalable websites that can load quickly across the globe, offering a better user experience and improved SEO rankings.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SEO and Google Ads impact</strong>: Optimizing website performance can positively affect Google Ads performance and SEO rankings. Faster websites lead to lower cost-per-click in Google Ads and better conversion rates, ultimately improving profitability.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Scalability and flexibility</strong>: Headless WooCommerce provides greater flexibility and scalability for businesses, allowing them to integrate various tools and APIs. This is particularly beneficial for larger enterprises with complex requirements.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Security enhancements</strong>: Decoupling the front end and back end enhances security by reducing the attack surface. Darko stresses the importance of implementing security measures like two-factor authentication to protect both the website and user data.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Use of AI in e-commerce</strong>: While AI is not yet fully developed, it can be used to improve operational efficiency and personalize user experiences. Darko mentions that AI can help generate dynamic content based on user behavior and preferences.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Challenges and costs</strong>: Transitioning to a headless setup can be more costly and time-consuming initially, but the long-term benefits in performance, scalability, and user experience often justify the investment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Community and collaboration</strong>: The importance of the WordPress community is highlighted, with WordCamps and meetups playing a vital role in connecting professionals and fostering collaboration.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Future developments</strong>: The discussion touches on future advancements in translations and AI integration, which will further enhance the capabilities of WooCommerce sites, especially for multinational businesses.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Links</h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://intellrocket.com/\">IntellRocket</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/company/intellrocket/\">IntellRocket on LinkedIn</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/darkosvetolikovic/\">Darko on LinkedIn</a></strong></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p></p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Thu, 18 Jul 2024 08:25:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:30;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:72:\"WPTavern: #128 – Fernando Tellado on AI Tools and Rehumanising the Web\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:48:\"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=157402\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:86:\"https://wptavern.com/podcast/128-fernando-tellado-on-ai-tools-and-rehumanising-the-web\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:40651:\"Transcript<div>\n<p>[00:00:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, AI tools and making the web more human again.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast, player of choice. Or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL in some most podcast players.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox, and use the form there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So on the podcast today, we have Fernando Tellado. Fernando is a very large force in the WordPress community in Spain. He&#8217;s the editor and writer at ayudawp.com, a blog in Spanish about WordPress with more than 15 years of publishing on a daily basis. He does consulting maintenance, security and performance services for WordPress sites. He&#8217;s published four books about WordPress. Not only that, he&#8217;s been involved with the WordPress community for 20 years organizing meetups, WordCamps, coordinating the official support forums, as well as taking leading roles in Spanish translations and Spain&#8217;s official community website.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We begin with a discussion on the current state of AI tools, which offer the capacity to generate thousands of posts in mere moments, mainly for search ranking purposes. Fernando explores the issue of content quality, and the growing challenge of distinguishing between human and AI generated content.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This leads to a chat about the strange position which Google finds itself in with its latest AI model, Gemini, which aims not only to generate content, but also to interact and answer questions like a human. How can Google on the one hand, be able to create content, and on the other be mindful of only promoting content, which it views as credible and reliable?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Fernando also talks about the rapid evolution of technology, drawing parallels to the industrial revolution, and it&#8217;s long lasting effects on society.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>He tackles concerns about AI potentially replacing jobs, and underscores the addictive nature of mobile phones, particularly for children.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The role of government in regulating technology also comes under scrutiny, but Fernando expresses skepticism about political intervention, and instead stresses the importance of parental responsibility in guiding children&#8217;s use of technology.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Towards the end, the discussion revolves around the necessity for both adults and children to learn and use technology responsibly. Fernando is passionate about the importance of human imagination, and our innate capacity to adapt to the technological environment. He advocates for individuals to slow down, assess the impact of technology on their lives, and make deliberate choices that ensure their wellbeing and that of their families.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re intrigued by the intersection of AI, WordPress, and the call for responsible unreflective use of technology, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading over to wptavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so without further delay, I bring you Fernando Tellado.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I am joined on the podcast by Fernando Tellado. Hello, Fernando.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:09] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> Hello Nathan. Very nice to see you too.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:11] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Really nice to meet you. We are at WordCamp Europe. We&#8217;re in one of the media rooms, and we&#8217;re chatting to Fernando today because Fernando is participating at WordCamp EU. He&#8217;s got a presentation, a talk, and the talk is called Re-Humanizing the Web, and everything you want related to WordPress. Is that the correct title? Did I get that right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:31] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> Yes, it&#8217;s the correct name.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:32] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, perfect. So we&#8217;ll get into that presentation, and what it means, and how you are very optimistic I think, about technology and AI, and all of those kind of things. But before we do that, will you just tell us a little bit about you, your relationship with WordPress, the things that you do in your life and in the WordPress community, which I understand in Spain is huge.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:53] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> I have been working with WordPress for more than 15 years. In these years I have been part of the community, where there wasn&#8217;t community in Spain. We made three WordCamps in Spain, called WordCamp Spain. Afterwards, it should to be named after cities. There was a time when we could make WordCamps the country. Afterwards they said that we must make the WordCamps city related. But we made the three WordCamps in Spain called Spain WorkCamps. In 2008, 2009, 2010. It was the first, the three first ones.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I was making translations at this moment. There was no community, and we began the first embryo of our community in the second WordCamp Spain, in Barcelona. And we began with translations because it was the first need, because everything in WordPress is written in English. In Spain it&#8217;s very difficult to introduce some software that isn&#8217;t in Spanish, because in Spain we don&#8217;t speak English, we don&#8217;t speak any other languages.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So it was really important for us that WordPress being in our languages, because it was our first priority. I think we have made a good work, because at this moment we are one of the biggest community. I think we are the best or the big, one of the biggest communities in translation. Every day, there aren&#8217;t any pending translation to be approved, day by day. And it&#8217;s the same in support.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We have the support forums that, every day, every question made is answered for one volunteer. And we are all volunteers. We have been volunteering for 15 years, in an everyday basis. We are very, very, few people that work in a daily basis, but very constant people. And I am only one of these people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>By the side I have a blog, where I have been writing for more than 15 years about WordPress. Almost in a daily basis. I write four or five posts a week, from Monday to Friday. I enjoy it because I write about the things I learn every day. It&#8217;s funny for me to see my blog post 15 years ago. They&#8217;re very simple. I have discovered a plugin that made this thing. The name of the plugin is that one, okay perfect, and it could be perfect for someone in every moment. Because in some moment, anyone is going to find solution for anything.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I have probably more than 5,000 posts. I have 40, more than 50 thousand comments in the blog. And I still write every day, because I every day work in WordPress. I work, my clients WordPress, every day I learn something. I teach WordPress to people, but I learned WordPress from everyone. From my colleagues at the work. From my clients, in every site because every site is different. Every site you have different needs, and it&#8217;s not difficult for me to write in the blog.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>When a lot of people ask me, is it not difficult for you to write every day year, after year, after year? It could be if I don&#8217;t work on WordPress, but as I work in WordPress everyday, I always have something to write about it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I like writing, I never thought that I want to write about technical things. I always thought, I will compare as a writer. I have written some books, but books about WordPress too. No books about a novel, or history that I would like. It&#8217;s about WordPress. So my life has been dedicated to WordPress in all aspects.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:18] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Quite a story. 15 years of almost daily blogging.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:22] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> And not expected at all.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:23] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, it just happened. That&#8217;s amazing. And I&#8217;m sure there&#8217;s a lot of people out there in the Spanish community, and maybe further afield who are very thankful for all the things that you&#8217;ve written over the years.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:33] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> Sometimes I feel like the father of a lot of people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:36] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> The Spanish community.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:37] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> Because I am getting older, it is good to get older too. You have some perspective about things. I am more kind. It is very difficult to make me angry.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:46] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So do you build websites for clients still? It sounds like, from what you said, that&#8217;s what promotes the bits and pieces that you are writing each day, because you find a new thing, you solve the problem, then you write about it. Yeah, like that, okay perfect.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You&#8217;ve got this topic that you are doing at WordCamp Europe. By the way, have you done it already?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:03] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> I did a basis at WordCamp Pontevedra, it&#8217;s a city in the north of Spain. I made a presentation, in which the first part was somewhat like the first part of the presentation. I&#8217;m going to talk tomorrow.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:17] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Oh, it&#8217;s tomorrow, okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:18] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> Tomorrow at 12.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, perfect. So it&#8217;s called Re-humanising the Web, and everything you want related to WordPress. If you are saying that rehumanising the web is a thing, that means, I presume you think it got dehumanised at some point.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:34] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> At some point, yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:35] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> What do you mean by that? What&#8217;s been dehumanised in the web? Just try to sum up your thoughts.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:40] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> The bad use of the tools. I think the tools are great. I am absolutely pro technology, I am absolutely pro AI, but we use badly, the technology. We are dehumanisation, the web. The website is our environment, it&#8217;s where we live, it&#8217;s where we find, and it is where we will work, in your case or mine. And it&#8217;s very important, I think it is the most important thing in the 21st century of the web. And we must take care of the website, or the web. And when people make bad use of the technology, they can dehumanise the technology.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Examples could be niches. There are a lot of people that have a lot of expertise on making niches, with niches automatically. From five years ago, they have the automatic WordPress packs, that they could make about 50 or hundreds of websites in a day or two days, in order to promote SEO niches.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Today, with the AI, they can make about 100,000 websites per day, with the aid of the AI, and paid of $1, $2, or $10. It is very cheap, and it&#8217;s very easy to make niches. And niches, there are websites that doesn&#8217;t make nothing to the people. They are not going to answer questions. We use the internet in order to answer our questions. When we go to Google, what is Google? Google is our psychologist. We ask Google, what&#8217;s happened to me? Do you have any answers? We are going to make questions to Google.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So the people to make niches, the niches website. So it is going to make the website less useful than yesterday. This is dehumanising because there are not people after this content. They are only a machine, that has not brought this content in order to answer a question of a human. It is made only to satisfy the need of the person that works in marketing for SEO, and he&#8217;s promoting one niche.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:38] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So if we rewind the clock, let&#8217;s go for five years. If we go back in time five years, when human beings created every piece of content, of course they could copy and paste and that happened. But mostly the content was written by a human, and it was written at a scale which humans could keep up with. So one post per day, two posts per day, whatever. And now you&#8217;re saying that the AI tools can create 10,000 posts in a heartbeat, in a few minutes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:12:09] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> Who can read that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:12:10] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Right, but also, why is it being created? And from what you are saying, it&#8217;s been created purely for Google, SEO.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:12:16] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> Purely for business.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:12:17] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> And ultimately that makes everything pointless because if there&#8217;s 10 trillion articles out on the internet, how can Google, which has, people argue about Google and whether it&#8217;s a force for good or a force for evil, but it&#8217;s definitely been helpful finding information. In the future, if we flood the landscape with AI written content, how can we ever decide what&#8217;s actually useful? And I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;ve got there yet. But do you see it coming? Do you see a day when that will happen, if we don&#8217;t put the brakes on?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:12:53] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> I think there are a lot of players that can act in that way, in order to pull the brake. Google is one of these, because Google can defer between human and not human content. Very easy. It&#8217;s very easy for Google. It&#8217;s very easy for us too. If we read every day, we can distinguish human made content or not.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I think Google is making the road easy in order to publish AI content. And at the same time, it&#8217;s putting in the road tools in order to pull the brake. Because Google is, at the moment, refactoring the more personal research. As you can remember, some years ago, beside some results you can see the face of the person who wrote the post.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think Google is, well, no, Google has, I say that he&#8217;s going to this type of recognising, or the way of recognising, the author of the content, in order to distinguish between human made content and AI content. Because I think it&#8217;s a matter of survival for Google, because the end, we are going to rely on the tool, and Google is a tool. It&#8217;s a big, I always say this, it is a big spreadsheet. I always see Google as a big, big, big spreadsheet. A big, big, big form, that has the results that can be useful or not.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In few years, doesn&#8217;t find good result for us, answer for us, we are going to abandon the tool. We are abandoned a lot of tools by the time. Younger people think that some tools are not going to disappear, never. And you and I know that it&#8217;s just, it does not even happen. We have seen disappear tools like Photo Log. We can see disappear, Facebook in some moment, or Instagram. Everything is possible, and Google too.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:36] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> What I find curious about, let&#8217;s just keep talking about the Google example, because it&#8217;s really easy to understand the benefit of Google. But curious that Google are also in the AI race. At the moment when we&#8217;re recording this in June 2024, they have this Gemini model, it&#8217;s called Gemini. And it&#8217;s obviously an LLM to create content.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But also, there&#8217;s the flip side. It&#8217;s not just about creating content, but it&#8217;s about answering questions, and interacting, and it&#8217;s kind of trying to be a human, if you like. So for Google, it&#8217;s a really difficult balancing act, because on the one hand, they&#8217;ve got to keep up with the AI opposition, so people like, I don&#8217;t know, Anthropic or OpenAI.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:15:18] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> People like AI.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:15:18] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, yeah, exactly. But also they&#8217;ve got to protect their search engine business, because if that gets just full up of AI, exactly what you said, it won&#8217;t even take five years. It would take a year for people to say, well, Google&#8217;s useless. It just gives me rubbish every time. I&#8217;m going to stop using it and go elsewhere. So that&#8217;s a very, very difficult path to tread for them I think.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:15:41] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> I don&#8217;t think, where is the market going? Where is going Google? Because one, two years ago we were, every moment, talking about NFTs, and who talk about NFTs today? Nobody. We have the Bitcoin bros, now we have the AI bros. People who embrace every new technology the most. And who knows? Who knows?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think we must have embraced the technology, as every technology gives us something to learn, and take the best of every technology, in order to advance in our life, and in the society. And every technology has the capacity to make a better life for us. From nuclear energy, it&#8217;s an extreme example, but nuclear energy has become a very important way of make our lives better through the years.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In some years not, but through the years, it has become a very important technology in our lives. With this whole, more little technologies, it is going to be the same. In some point they&#8217;re going to convert it to facilities, to something that we assume that every time has been there, and we are going to take the better of every technology. In the case of the NFTs, in the case of the AI, we have some kind of AIs from 10 ago. It&#8217;s not really new. Growing in very few months, and the technology of ChatGPT, in order more conversational in the AI.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But it&#8217;s like a city, it&#8217;s like an evolution of a city. There&#8217;s an evolution of all the oldest and older technologies. We have to present attention to these technologies, but not to give them too much attention.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:22] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Interesting. Yeah, the thing that you said there about Bitcoin and NFTs, yeah, you&#8217;re really right. If you were to go back, I don&#8217;t know, three years or something like that, they really were being talked about a lot. You could barely open a newspaper without somebody talking about Bitcoin, and now complete silence. Nobody&#8217;s talking about that. And so maybe the same will happen to AI, and we&#8217;re in a kind of hype cycle at the moment, where everybody&#8217;s obsessing about it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I do wonder about that. I do wonder about, let&#8217;s say, for example, companies like OpenAI who have a lot of money tied up in it being successful, and presumably spend quite a lot of their time telling us how wonderful it&#8217;s going to be, marketing it to us, if you like. And maybe that cycle, we&#8217;ll just get bored of it. We just get disinterested, and it will just become something that we use, but we&#8217;re not really, you know, it&#8217;s nothing to worry about. It&#8217;s nothing to get excited about even, because it&#8217;s just what we&#8217;ve got.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:22] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> No, I think we can excite about this. But at the end, all of these technologies in a certain point became a standard. When everyone used the word it tends, in a moment, to not make sense. It&#8217;s like freedom or anything. When everyone talks about freedom, freedom doesn&#8217;t mean anything. That&#8217;s the same. At this moment, I think AI is a claim for every services. Every day we see services with the new AI, with artificial intelligence. Everything has AI, not in my case.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>My case, I have that claim, in the blog that is, write it with no AI. You&#8217;re not expecting to have something that is going to give you always the reason, because AI always gives you the reason. If you discuss with AI, for example, in ChatGPT, it tends to be nice with you always.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think this is the first sentence someone teach to the AI. Be nice. At the end, be nice. If someone discuss with you, be nice. Don&#8217;t discuss with anything, because do you remember there have been some scandals about the AI in Gemini I thought? Create soldiers of the second world war.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:27] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> An image of the.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:29] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> Nazis and so on. That&#8217;s because they have no contest, no one behind to tell the child, because it&#8217;s a child. No, not this way, better this way. You must learn it every day. And the AI is interesting, if always is going to be someone behind learning every day what it&#8217;s going to be, how it must behave with the environment, because the environment changes. We have something different as humans, it&#8217;s our capacity to adapt our environment to us, and adapt us to our environment. This is the story of the humans.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So there are some things that I&#8217;m going to talk in my presentation at WordCamp Europe. I want to talk especially about this, because always there&#8217;re going to be technology. There&#8217;s going to be amazing technology, but always remember that the technology doesn&#8217;t make by themselves. Always there&#8217;s a human that is capable to imagine that technology in the first place. This is the most important thing. The most important thing is to imagine that technology, and this is a human capacity.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And in the second place, it could be to make this technology, or make work this technology. But human is capable to imagine things, that is the most important thing, that because I not afraid of technology. Because I know that for years in the history has been demonstrated that only a human can imagine how could be things. All the rest of the animals, if we can embrace in the animal race or something, has a lot of capacities, but not the capacity to imagine it&#8217;s own life. Or it&#8217;s own capabilities more beyond the actual capabilities. And that&#8217;s because the human can make AIs, and sort of interesting and amazing things.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:21:10] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Does it concern you that, even though AIs seemingly can&#8217;t be truly creative in the way that a human can. If you tell it to draw a picture of a, I don&#8217;t know, a dog sitting on a landscape with the moon in the background, and it can do something like that. And it looks like creativity, but if we understand the way that that&#8217;s actually happening, it&#8217;s merely a process of, okay, what should this next pixel look like? And eventually it comes out, and it&#8217;s got a picture of a dog, but it&#8217;s not created that question itself.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Do you worry that it&#8217;s good enough that it could put a lot of people out of work, who are doing work that doesn&#8217;t require much creativity? I don&#8217;t know, imagine that you are in a call center, you&#8217;re a support agent, and you are answering questions. The responsibilities that you have are not all that complicated, it&#8217;s fairly basic.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think some people worry that those kind of jobs are going to disappear, because an AI can take over. And then if we imagine the career ladder, you know, you start on the bottom rung, and you go to the next one, and eventually you retire at the top. If we knock out the bottom layer, it&#8217;s going to be hard for the next generation, the children of today to start the career, because that whole bottom layer has disappeared. And I don&#8217;t know how that&#8217;s all going to pan out, but that concerns me a little bit.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:22:28] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> Yeah, I can understand you. It&#8217;s a concern for me too because I always think about the children. Who&#8217;s going to think about the children? I want to talk about this because there are tools that could be very useful for you and for me, but it is not useful, and they are not suitable, and not recommendable to children.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>A simple case, calculator is very good for a person that is a physician, a mathematician that knows how to calculate, and used the tool in order to gain time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But it&#8217;s not a good tool for the children because this tool is going to retain him or her to learn how to calculate. We must put some breaks on, or close 13 doors in order to maintain these priorities. I think we must think about the tools, not only what tool can do, more about, in what moment is this tool can be thrown to the people, or to who?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Because it is very important that, from the beginning of your life, we train our brain in order to make all the human can do. And in some moments the tool can be the worst idea for us. There&#8217;s a certain part of our brain, it&#8217;s the prefrontal cortex. It&#8217;s very important in this thing. There are a lot of scientifical studies, it&#8217;s very, very, very interesting. You&#8217;re aware about, are concerned, and in this case, about what is going to happen with humanity and society.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s very important in this part of our brain because this is the part of the brain that distinguish us as human from the other animals. And it&#8217;s especially important for the children. Because, not only for the new tools of the AI, that is very important in case of social media. They use the consummation of social media, it&#8217;s a very instant transformation. It&#8217;s an transformation that very few seconds, cannot train the brain, the prefrontal cortex, to make all the things that the prefrontal cortex could do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This part of the brain is the part that differentiates us in things as important as predictions, imagination, how to be nice in a conversation when you need to be nice, when to know how to empathy with someone. There are very important things that some of these tools, today tools, like social media networks, and the AI can not permit this part of the brain to grow as needed.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, we as parents, we as human adults, we have a responsibility in order to allow our children, or other children to grow as sane as possible, and not to allow to use some tools in certain ages. In Europe, some countries is beginning to forbid to make the mobile phones in the classroom. Because it have been obvious that the attention is dispersed, and the children learn badly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I think we are going to this kind of better use of the technology, because it&#8217;s true what you say at the beginning of our conversation about the extra hype of the AI, or the new tools. A point that the people cannot distinguish on the right use of externally.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:25:29] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I think that&#8217;s a really interesting point, because you talked about a calculator, and how that saved you a lot of time, but no child is going to hold the calculator and use it at three o&#8217;clock in the morning, or be addicted to doing calculations. I mean, maybe there is a child somewhere who would use the calculator all day, every day because they&#8217;re just fascinated.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the mobile phone in particular, really has the capacity to subvert the entire day. You know, you can pour all of yourself into that thing, you&#8217;re scrolling on some kind of social media, or you&#8217;re chatting with people, or you&#8217;re just watching videos.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And especially for children who are born in an era where that was always around, and they see their parents that are addicted to it, and they see that everybody at the bus stop is using it, that then has become, well, that&#8217;s how normal people function.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Everybody&#8217;s scrolling all the time, and that concerns me a lot because there is something unique about that device. There&#8217;s some way that it can drag you in. Even, you know, the moment you&#8217;ve got nothing to do, out comes the phone, and you can spend a long time. So I think you&#8217;re right. I think there is a little bit of a shift at the moment. I think people are starting to recognise, that&#8217;s probably not healthy for anybody to be doing that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:48] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> I understand absolutely. But we must think that, in very few years, we have gone, we have traveled in a work, in our parents, in a lot of cases, having got a telephone in the release. Very, very few years ago.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:01] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah not long.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:02] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> When you and me born and grow, there weren&#8217;t internet. And the problem is for children, but we all child too, because we&#8217;re not training in the current use of these new technologies. Technologies are over us, but not only over the children, it&#8217;s over us, everyone.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We are not trained how to make a good use of these technologies. We might be trained before, we might be able to be trained, afterwards train the children. We are the first one to train in how to use in the core, the way these technologies, because we are not trained to do it. We have been born in our world very different, and we are astonishing about this technology, because it&#8217;s brilliant. They&#8217;re awesome. So they surprise us, and we use that in a platform. And we must train us in the first place, and after train the children.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:53] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> This is a matter of too much information, too much changes in very few time, for everyone. We must put the breaks on in some moment, and make a reflection. For example, my presentation, it&#8217;s not a talk. I&#8217;m not going to give answers to any question. I would like to make the people reflect about this problem, this opportunity, in order not to be concerned, in order to be responsible. We must change. As adults, as human adults, we must send to the responsibility, and begin to train ourselves in how to use this technology in a good way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We can hear a lot of the startups, that is beginning to talk about the bad things about their own technologies. They say a lot of people see themselves as startups, and says about, they don&#8217;t allow the children to learn with the iPads, or tablets, or so on because they know what they are going do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We&#8217;re the people, with the adult humans, enlightened with technologies, don&#8217;t know how work really the technology. These younger people that knows how the algorithms works are telling us the truth. And the truth is that we must begin to learn how to use these technologies, and afterwards spread it to the children. I don&#8217;t mind about you and me because we are adults, and we affect our responsibilities, and make our own life. But we must take responsibility for the children</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:29:13] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, it&#8217;s an interesting thought because, first of all, I imagine it&#8217;s true that every generation that has ever been has faced something which they thought was going to be the end of humanity. You know, whether it was the printing press, Gutenberg&#8217;s printing press, or whether it was, oh I don&#8217;t know, the plough, or whatever it may be. This is going to be the end of all the things. And it feels like this one really could be that, and yet it&#8217;s probably just one, you know, and in history, 200 years from now, people will look back on our time and say, oh, that was an interesting moment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:29:43] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> This is very interesting to realise that today, I pay my dues, things, a technology that didn&#8217;t exist when I was born. And it was going to be the same as the time passes. At the moment, there are works that doesn&#8217;t exist, that in the future are going to exist, and a lot of people will work in this new works that doesn&#8217;t exist at the moment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The more radical change I think was in the industrial revolution. That changed everything. It changed not only the way human work, they introduce the plastics, as we know at this moment, because it changed everything. We create the cities because there weren&#8217;t cities before, we create the industries, we create the supermarkets, all the world as we know it at the moment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It led to some problems. We are living today with problems created in that moment, in the Industrial Revolution. As, in the future, someone is going to live with the problems we are creating now, right now with another technologies. But there is going to be always somewhere that is going to disappear.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:30:47] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I have one final question, which is that, you say we need to train ourselves. And I think that&#8217;s a really important message. If you detect in yourself that technology has overtaken important parts of your life, you need to be an adult, I guess, and say to yourself, put it down. Stop using it at the moments where it&#8217;s not useful or it&#8217;s not important, or, I don&#8217;t know, you are ignoring your family because of it. And we need to train the children to have that understanding. So there&#8217;s that message as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Do you prefer, or maybe there&#8217;s no perfect way, do you think government should be involved in this? Like you said, certain countries are saying, you may not carry mobile phones in schools. In the UK, very recently, I doubt it will happen, but one of the political parties suggested that mobile phones should be banned until you are 16 years old, which is a really, hitting a nut with a big hammer. What do you think about that? Do you think it should be more personal education, or top down government, giving us guidance about what we can and cannot do?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:31:49] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> I have problem with politicians because I not confident of them. Politics is very important in our lives, it&#8217;s the way we lead us, decide who is going to represent us. And that&#8217;s the way this must to be. But, at the end, political are the new kingdom, are the new cast, are the new kings. So they are very separate for all decisions at the moment. In the case of children, I am especially unconfident, because a politician is always going to try to train the new generations, in order to be good for him.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I always prefer that the fathers decide because, I know very few things, but I think that I knew that a father going to do nothing that could be bad for your children. You&#8217;re going to always protect your children because it&#8217;s always you. Is you are father? I don&#8217;t know.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:41] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:42] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> Yes. You are not going to do anything that is going to be bad for your children. That&#8217;s not the same in the politician. The ideas could be nice, could be affordable, but at the end, the fathers has to be the last decision in those things. I don&#8217;t believe in politician at the moment because I miss my life. My life in Spain, we&#8217;ve had very bad politicians for life. From dictators, to actual, and, not better. But, at the end, we had the less responsibility in the family, we have to decide.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s difficult for us because easier for us when someone go to our house, poof, read instructions. I get to my son, read instructions, they are more prepared to do these kind of things. I must read the instructions in order to know, is this tool going to be good or bad to my children? Because I have the responsibility as they live in my home, and I&#8217;m responsible for them, I&#8217;m responsible for what this technology is going to be in their lives.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So we must take that responsibility in every little thing. We must stop, as you say. We must stop a moment, say, I go, it&#8217;s a mobile phone, it&#8217;s interesting. There are other apps. What is this app? What this app is important for me, or it&#8217;s important for my children. We must live more quietly, and take the things with a little more time. We don&#8217;t need to live so fast, it&#8217;s not necessary, not mandatory.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It is good for Facebook, it&#8217;s good for Meta, good for Google because they live from the algorithms, and they live for how many times we scroll in the mobile phone. But our life is not that. We don&#8217;t need so many things. And there are very good technologies, there are good AIs that we can use for our benefit, not for the benefit of who made it in the first time, or someone&#8217;s needs above our need.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:34:27] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I think I understand a lot more about what you mean by rehumanising the web now. You&#8217;ve really explained it very well. So thank you for chatting to us today. Unfortunately, time is short, so we&#8217;re going tohave to, as we say in the UK, knock it on the head. We&#8217;ll have to end there, but that was a really interesting conversation. So, Fernando Tellado, thank you so much for chatting to me today.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:34:46] <strong>Fernando Tellado:</strong> It has been a pleasure for me.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<p>On the podcast today we have <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/fernandot/\">Fernando Tellado</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Fernando is a very large force in the WordPress community in Spain. He’s the editor and writer at <a href=\"https://ayudawp.com/\">ayudawp.com</a>, a blog in Spanish about WordPress, with more than 15 years of publishing on a daily basis. He does consulting, maintenance, security and performance services for WordPress sites. He’s published four books about WordPress. Not only that, he’s been involved with the WordPress community for 20 years, organising meetups, WordCamps, coordinating the official support forums, as well as taking leading roles in Spanish translations, and Spain&#8217;s official community website.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We begin with a discussion on the current state of AI tools which offer the capacity to generate thousands of posts in mere moments, mainly for search ranking purposes. Fernando explores the issue of content quality and the growing challenge of distinguishing between human and AI-generated content. This leads to a chat about the strange position which Google finds itself in with its latest AI model, Gemini, which aims not only to generate content but also to interact and answer questions like a human. How can Google on the one hand be able to create content, and on the other be mindful of only promoting content which it views as credible and reliable?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Fernando also talks about the rapid evolution of technology, drawing parallels to the industrial revolution and its long-lasting effects on society. He tackles concerns about AI potentially replacing jobs and underscores the addictive nature of mobile phones, particularly for children. The role of government in regulating technology also comes under scrutiny, but Fernando expresses scepticism about political intervention, and instead stresses the importance of parental responsibility in guiding children&#8217;s use of technology.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Towards the end, the discussion revolves around the necessity for both adults and children to learn and use technology responsibly. Fernando is passionate about the importance of human imagination and our innate capacity to adapt to the technological environment. He advocates for individuals to slow down, assess the impact of technology on their lives, and make deliberate choices that ensure their well-being and that of their families.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you’re intrigued by the intersection of AI, WordPress, and the call for responsible and reflective use of technology, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Useful links</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://ayudawp.com/\">ayudawp.com</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://europe.wordcamp.org/2024/session/re-humanising-the-web/\">Re-Humanizing the Web</a> &#8211; Fernando&#8217;s presentation and WordCamp Europe 2024</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://pontevedra.wordcamp.org/2024/\">PonteWordCamp</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://gemini.google.com/?hl=en-GB\">Gemini</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://openai.com/\">OpenAI</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.anthropic.com/\">Anthropic</a></p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 17 Jul 2024 14:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14:\"Nathan Wrigley\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:31;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:75:\"Do The Woo Community: Boosting WooCommerce Performance with Marcel and Mike\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=84634\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:74:\"https://dothewoo.io/boosting-woocommerce-performance-with-marcel-and-mike/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:48845:\"<div class=\"wp-block-group has-border-color has-light-gray-background-color has-background has-small-font-size has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-43 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p class=\"has-secondary-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-9acf640b7ba38a84a982fc35d618387f\">This show is sponsored by&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-vertical is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-42 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-9 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-41 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-base-background-color has-background wp-container-content-17 has-global-padding is-content-justification-left is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-40 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<img width=\"1650\" height=\"1650\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/dothewoo.io/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/avalara-logo-_dtw.png?resize=1650%2C1650&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-75400\" />\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-container-content-18\"><strong><a href=\"https://developer.avalara.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Avalara</a></strong>: help developers make sure their Woo projects are tax compliance done right with Avalara&#8217;s API. Visit their extensive developer resources today.</p>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\nEpisode Transcript\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p>Mike:<br />Yeah, I think having adequate resources for the site is super important. So there&#8217;s enough CPU and RAM, using fast SSD drives. There&#8217;s room for growth. A lot of the time I see not enough resources being allocated for the database, for example. It&#8217;s like having a big enough engine to power that database. Having access for developers like SSH analytics tools, being able to access the logs and scrape those properly for little nuggets of information. Having some sort of application performance monitor (APM) like New Relic is the one that I use the most. It&#8217;s pretty popular because you want to be ideally alerted and proactive about performance issues rather than reactive. You don&#8217;t want to find out customers are emailing you or blasting you on social media that, oh, you&#8217;re trying to check out on this thing again and it&#8217;s crashing or slow or whatever. It&#8217;s better if you get an alert from your own systems that you have set up for monitoring, etc., to go out and put that fire out and be able to pinpoint the issue very, very quickly instead of trying to play detective with discovering all the clues instead of having the clues handed to you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Having some sort of CDN integration I think is quite important as well. There are a lot of Cloudflare enterprise partners now with hosting companies, which I think is, if you wanted to build your own Cloudflare network, good luck. That&#8217;s a lot of resources, a lot of money. So I think it&#8217;s easier to just get a host that already leverages their network for the DDoS protection and the security because sometimes the performance issues I see on WooCommerce sites are actually security related. The site is constantly getting attacked on the login page or good old XML-RPC, which has been around since the dawn of computing and is used but can still be a very common attack vector. And fraudulent orders was one that I saw come up recently. This client had a bot network that was attacking them, making a bunch of fraudulent orders, just taking up resources from real people who are actually buying stuff. So yeah, those are the things I think off the top of my head.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />And I obviously think that the very basic part of it, of the hosting, is if you have an audience or a market that is more US-based or European-based or whatever region you&#8217;re selling to or providing your services to, that also plays a very important role in deciding which area of the world you&#8217;re selling to and then choosing a hosting company that has good data centers or good resources in that specific area. The region of the world is, I guess, the number one thing we should look for when we&#8217;re going to choose a hosting company because they all say they are very fast everywhere, but if you dig a little deeper, you will see that they are probably more US-based. So whenever you go to a hosting company and you search for their data centers and where they&#8217;re located, some of them, even when you spin up a hosting service, they will ask which area do you want to cover.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think some of them are more US-based, some of them are more European-based, and we have Asian ones. For example, if you want to go to the Asian market and sell in China, Japan, and other countries, it&#8217;s far more challenging to choose the right hosting company than it would be to sell in Europe or in the US. So that would be probably my advice: choose a hosting company that has all the services you talked about and all the little details that they care about, specific for WooCommerce, but also where they are really strong when it comes to providing the fastest services in the region of the world you want to sell. Number two, I would say, is the theme. When we talk about the theme, do your clients go more with existing themes and then change that, or do they have custom themes?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />It depends on the size of the client. I work with a range of small businesses to enterprise clients. One of the Shark Tank clients I&#8217;m working with, they were using a very popular commercial theme that had a lot of extra bloat and unnecessary stuff they didn&#8217;t need. I told them, you have the budget and the resources, go custom. It&#8217;s hard to compete with the performance of a custom-built theme, and if you have resources available to maintain it going forward, absolutely it&#8217;s the way to go. I generally find that smaller businesses, when they&#8217;re just starting out, they don&#8217;t know if what they&#8217;re going to build and try is going to have legs, is it going to work, is it going to make money?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So they will tend to pick a theme that is pretty, has predefined templates that will work with WooCommerce, and has a bunch of features. As time goes on, they probably also use a page builder or two or three I&#8217;m sure we&#8217;ve all seen, and other components. That will tend to, of course, slow things down. I tell them during consultations that if you&#8217;re using a certain combination of theme and a page builder, I would start with removing that and then if you&#8217;re still not happy, we can look further at what&#8217;s slowing things down. So I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s a mixture. Whenever I see a custom-built theme with a cart, I&#8217;m like, oh good. This means that I don&#8217;t have to have that difficult conversation of if they&#8217;re really in love with their theme or the design that the theme provides, and you tell them, hey, you have to get rid of this. It&#8217;s like taking a toy away from a child that they&#8217;re very, very happy with. Then I tell them, no, no, no, you can have the same design and features, just rebuild it with lighter components.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />And usually as a developer, when you have a client that is using an existing theme and they start having these ideas about, oh, what if we could change this page and make the image appear on the right side instead of the left side, or we need the description to have a bigger place now let&#8217;s move it down, or now we need an extra tab for this or for that. And then you suddenly end up having so much customization on top of an existing theme that you start asking yourself or challenging the client, this is becoming so cumbersome to maintain all of these changes. It would make more sense to build a custom theme. I would say if you have the resources and if your client has the resources, a custom theme may seem like very hard work at the beginning because you have to do all of those standard pages, the 404s, the search page and all of that, but it will compensate in the end because if you have full control of everything that is being loaded on a theme and usually when you go with an existing theme, you don&#8217;t need all of the features that they offer, you have a lot more control over performance.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So if you&#8217;re starting out, fine, but if you want to invest in something that is very important to the performance, I would say the theme is the number one category where you should put some resources because we&#8217;re talking about web performance and we&#8217;re talking about key metrics that we can measure. The theme part is one of the most important components because it is responsible for the front-end part. When we talk about key metrics, we talk about LCP (Largest Contentful Paint), we talk about the First Input Delay (FID), we talk about Cumulative Layout Shift (CLS), which is when the page loads and things start moving up and down because the images are loading or different parts of the page are loading and they&#8217;re shifting up and down, which makes it very confusing for a user to follow. That is all the theme, or mostly the theme&#8217;s responsibility. From the key metrics, what is the most important one in your view?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />I think Largest Contentful Paint (LCP) is a big one. So related to conversion rates, time to first byte as well. I know it&#8217;s not a core web vital, but…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />I forgot to mention that. It&#8217;s an important key metric as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />Everything else, the Largest Contentful Paint can only be as fast as the time to first byte. And there&#8217;s also Interaction to Next Paint (INP), which you mentioned in the introduction, right? That I think replaced FID, the transition because when you click the button or whatever and you don&#8217;t see something happening within a few milliseconds, we get confused or frustrated and keep clicking the button faster. That&#8217;s a common human thing where we think clicking the button harder and more intensely will make it work. Maybe you press your mouse button extra hard or…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />Multiple times.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />Yeah, like clicking the elevator button faster and faster…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />It&#8217;s not coming. Let&#8217;s press again.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />I think that one is really important for stores because of the add-to-cart checkout flow. It&#8217;s important to signal to the user that they&#8217;re making progress towards their end goal and with their journey of trying to get this product or service that you&#8217;re selling. That one is more difficult to measure in, not in the wild, but to pinpoint where the INP issue is coming from is not as difficult as Largest Contentful Paint, for example, which is well established for being very related to the revenue conversion rates. There&#8217;s a cool calculator that Google put out a long time ago that they deprecated for some reason. I don&#8217;t know why, but we took the code and put it on my website. I think I&#8217;ve sent you the link before too with this LCP Premier calculator.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />And I would recommend everybody to take a look at that because it&#8217;s very interesting how much you can estimate the increase in terms of conversions just by tweaking some of these key metrics in more performance.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />It can help a lot to put things into perspective for the clients. It&#8217;s not based on a specific niche. It&#8217;s aggregated data that people and Google Analytics opted in to allow Google to track. So it&#8217;s from all niches across all different industries, and it gives us the best idea of if we can improve the LCP from X to Y, and if you know your average order value, the amount of customers that come</p>\n\n\n\n<p>per month, and one other piece I can&#8217;t remember, you can see how much more revenue you will get if you make that improvement in the LCP. It can help shortcut some of the conversations about price. If you&#8217;re saying, oh, it&#8217;s going to cost $10,000 or $20,000 to do this reworking of the site or whatever, and they can see, oh, that sounds expensive, but if you use the calculator they can see, oh, that&#8217;s going to mean half a million extra in potential profit from a business perspective, it becomes a much easier decision.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />And clients do have sort of the first impression that they get when we present them these numbers and we talk about this specific calculator you&#8217;re talking about and they go, oh, that sounds too much or that sounds too good to be true and all of that. But you&#8217;ve done that. You actually have some cases on a website where you improve some clients&#8217; websites and it really turned into more profit. So that&#8217;s something that clients will notice after you do performance tweaks and it&#8217;s something that is absolutely incredible how they suddenly start believing in you and suddenly start seeing how important performance is to their funnel and to the sales and conversions and all of that. It sort of makes you feel a little bit like a magician or a special god of some sorts when you get to that point and then that client is hooked to you forever, I would say.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />Yeah, it&#8217;s a very effective way to establish trust for the long-term because a lot of this stuff when it comes to performance is unknown for a client. We all know technology is unreliable, unpredictable, we can have the best intentions, we can make all these plans and then something that we didn&#8217;t anticipate can mess things up. And so I think even if you have these case studies and you have lots of proof and stories, clients are still a little bit like, ah, but maybe that won&#8217;t work for us. So when it does, I can see the struggle in their faces and that hesitation like, ah, they&#8217;re taking that leap, jumping off the cliff and spending the money where things could not get any better. That&#8217;s one of their main concerns, that it&#8217;s not going to provide the return on investment. Fortunately, when you follow a specific methodology, and I&#8217;m sure this is true for anyone who&#8217;s worked with performance, if the client is getting enough traffic, if the user experience of the site is otherwise good, their business model is sound. When you&#8217;re improving the performance, it always makes sense within reason. Of course, once you get to a certain point, unless you&#8217;re Amazon or Walmart or a very large client, spending an extra $500,000 to improve performance is not necessarily going to make sense. But for smaller clients, the initial performance tuning is pretty much always worth it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />I guess being aware that it is an important factor when you go online and do sell products is step one to admit regardless of your size. And I&#8217;ve seen other big brands in Portugal and the companies who were selling online who initially didn&#8217;t give that much of a thought about performance and their websites were being slow and inconsistent and they were difficult to navigate. And since some time back, a couple of them have been actually working on their performance side and worrying about all these different key metrics we just talked about. And guess what? They&#8217;re selling better. And you usually think big companies and big brands, oh, they must for sure know about this. And you probably also think, oh, my client has been online selling this product for more than 10 years now. He heard about performance, he&#8217;s done everything that he can. Surprisingly, many people do not know about it in a way that affects immediately their conversion rate.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I wanted to talk also about plugins and the importance of plugins and especially the number of plugins that people install. They think they&#8217;re essential and they&#8217;re not. So my experience is more in terms of whenever I get hands on a website, it is performing very slowly. 30, 40 plus plugins are installed. Oh, when we start doing the audit and ask, do you need this plugin? What is this for? We certainly get rid of 10 immediately just by talking two minutes into the list of the plugins. And just that alone already cuts down the time considerably. And all the other plugins that are installed there are usually because there&#8217;s something missing on the e-commerce out-of-the-box features that people don&#8217;t have. And we&#8217;ve also seen WooCommerce iterating and adding some of those missing features into the core installation. But the number of plugins is also another thing that is very important to talk about, and that means also you need to update them and the more you have, the more security issues you have. You certainly also have multiple plugins that do the same function, or at least in their feature list they offer the same things and you just add things to the website that are absolutely not necessary.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So when it comes to choosing a plugin, it&#8217;s also important to know about their performance and how they affect performance and if they are built in a way that shows the concern of the author of the plugin was performance or not. We usually use plugins to do image optimizations, maybe to do caching as well. We&#8217;re going to talk about caching next. We use plugins basically to change features and to add features to WooCommerce. So plugins are very important. What is your experience with plugins? And you mentioned page builders. Page builders are plugins, but there are other nightmares that we can talk about when it comes to plugins and performance, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />Yeah, I mean my approach is similar to yours. It&#8217;s remarkable how frequently you ask just simple questions, why do you have three forms plugins or what is this for? And they say, oh, well we haven&#8217;t used that in six months or a year, or we don&#8217;t use that plugin or feature anymore. And I tell them what you said, every plugin is a security liability and a performance liability. So as soon as you don&#8217;t need it, treat your website like an F1 car. There&#8217;s nothing on an F1 car that doesn&#8217;t need to be there. If it has a specific purpose and provides some value in some way, it should be there, otherwise, there&#8217;s no reason to have it. But otherwise, I would say the plugin quality is much more important than the plugin quantity. So I have seen websites that have 90 plugins and perform very, very well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s absolutely possible, but it&#8217;s usually these heavier plugins that have lots of bundled features, 80% of which you don&#8217;t use, and then you do that 10 times and you can see them in the profiling, code profiling, tools, plugins that are just finding out, do I need to run or running unnecessarily on pages. For example, a client I mentioned earlier, Bingbot. Bingbot was crawling a product archive page and it was triggering the membership plugin to see if the Bingbot had access to the particular pages of products on that product category page because the way the plugin was configured was to grant access based on categories and I was like, it&#8217;s ridiculous. First of all, a bot isn&#8217;t going to log in and take any courses or download any products, but there was literally no reason for the membership plugin to execute. So that was down to code quality in my experience and making sure that plugins, pretty much most plugins I see, do not have the logic to find out, do I need to execute here? Do I need to do anything here before it starts to process its own code? And I think that&#8217;s why when people complain about WooCommerce being slow or WordPress being slow, it&#8217;s not the core of WordPress being slow, it&#8217;s all the other extra stuff that you added usually that is causing those kinds of experiences.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />And when it comes to choosing a particular plugin that has a particular feature, you obviously have a bunch of different plugins out there, and usually what I tell people is, well, you could hire a developer to make a more informed decision about how the code quality is and how the plugin works and how it performs, but if you don&#8217;t have the resources to hire an expert when you buy these plugins, basically, I guess looking at the plugin&#8217;s reviews and seeing what other people are saying or maybe just trying to get a feel of if you see a plugin that is promoting bundled features that are 30, 40, 50 and they are expanding way beyond whatever the core function of the plugin is, it usually means that they are bloated and they&#8217;re not very specifically oriented to the feature that they were talking about. When we did plugins for other companies here at our agency, some of them wanted to expand to other areas that were not the core focus of their plugin initially.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So for a developer, it&#8217;s very hard to keep consistency and keep the code in a shape that is solely focused on the core feature it was intended to be in the first place. So if you start doing other features and start adding other elements to the plugin, for the developer or developer team who is responsible for making it perform well, it&#8217;s going to be very hard for them to just focus on that particular feature, so that is very important. Next on the list is caching. We talked about caching. There are three main techniques of caching I think we can say. There is page caching, which are static versions of pages that are stored usually on the hosting side. We have object caching, which caches database queries so that they do not need to be executed every time somebody gets into a page. And we also have browser caching, which is telling the browser to store certain resources locally and not have them transmitted all over again. Caching is probably one of the hardest things to manage and to talk about because most of the hosting companies already say, we have the best caching solution and technique, just come with your website and host with us, and you&#8217;re going to have the latest caching technology. Then when you dive in and want to control some aspect of the caching, you usually have no idea what they&#8217;re doing behind the scenes and they don&#8217;t tell you what resources and what techniques they&#8217;re using behind the</p>\n\n\n\n<p>scenes. So this is a very important topic. It&#8217;s a very difficult topic as well from a developer&#8217;s perspective because usually people think, oh, we just throw in a bunch of plugins like WPRocket or WP Total Cache or whatever other plugins there are, and the site will be faster, and then you hire a developer and the developer goes in and starts thinking about what is going on. We have all this caching going on, and what do you think about caching? Is it up in earliest as an important part? And also it&#8217;s important to talk about the different pages that we have within WooCommerce. We have the checkout, the cart, we have a catalog, we have the first page, so not all of these pages are treated equally when it comes to caching. Right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />There&#8217;s also two other little pieces of caching too. There&#8217;s fragment caching, which is rarely used but handy to cache partial pieces of the page and CDN caching, edge caching, I would argue. Yeah, but I know that those are typically not considered under the umbrella in the same way. It&#8217;s not the ones that pop up first in mind, and I think with object caching too, you can also cache the results of API calls. I think we&#8217;ve done that before for clients with really slow calls that need to fetch something from some API that takes a couple of minutes, and instead of doing that every page load, we store it in a transient. But yes, caching is very, very important. I think in terms of the order that we discuss things, the hosting, the theme, plugins, caching, they&#8217;re all really, really the first points of call when it comes to doing audits and making sure things are running well. I think page caching is probably the most important one to get right because everything else will, like you said, the LCP will depend on your time to first byte, which is tremendously improved once you get page caching working, and if you again can leverage edge caching on top of that, you can save usually another 100, 200, 300 milliseconds, which can speed up the other components.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />Especially the initial page. The homepage is probably one of the easiest pages to cache, and because it is the point of entry to the website, it just gives you the first impression that we&#8217;re looking for it to be fast and clicky and all of the links that go from the first page to specific products and maybe category pages and all of that, those are very easily cacheable pages, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like the pieces where there aren&#8217;t dynamic components that need to do post requests or fetch something from the database particular to that visitor, that kind of stuff. I certainly encourage people to build their homepages like that so that they&#8217;re very cache-friendly and we don&#8217;t have to worry about users seeing something they&#8217;re not supposed to or those kinds of things compared to if you have product category pages where you have something with facets where you can filter and drill down, you&#8217;re fetching a lot of information straight from the database, which I noticed…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />Even with those pages, you can still cache them. Usually filtering options that you have on the website, in the cases where the number of combinations are not in the millions, if they&#8217;re in the hundreds, it&#8217;s not difficult to cache all the different variations when it comes to filtering and having fast filtering is one of the biggest challenges in a WooCommerce store. But if you&#8217;re small and if you have the knowledge and if you can hire a developer to do that, we developers have the resources to cache those filtered pages as well, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think you even built something for, I forgot the name of it, but you built a filter plugin for a client that is actually selling it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />Well, in that particular version we did a little, the client had this awesome idea to just provide the browser with the initial results of the filtered products, but it wasn&#8217;t directly related to the caching part, but here&#8217;s the deal, it benefits greatly from page caching because the information that comes with the page source is already enough for people to feel the filtering to be very fast. It&#8217;s the perceived part that we talked about at the beginning, but it&#8217;s not caching everything, but it&#8217;s caching just enough for people to think this is super fast. And yes, that was one of the techniques that they used, but even if you don&#8217;t have that, even if you have a page caching system where the first customer goes in is the one who generates the HTML for that particular cache, and then the second one that does the same, the same filtering options will be served the cached version of it, and that&#8217;s…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />Possible, and I think with filtering too, you get, so you can do both page caching and basically object caching is what I would call it when you are storing them in the database or if you can cache the query string, get parameters from, if that&#8217;s how the facet plugin is working, then you get to leverage Varnish or Nginx or whatever other caching plugin you might be using, and that&#8217;s one cool way to do it. But then if that isn&#8217;t cached, it fetches it straight from a transient inside the database is the next best thing. So I know some people don&#8217;t like having layers of cache because you can have stale cache and you don&#8217;t want the user to be delivered expired data, but I think if you get things configured correctly, everything helps boost one another. It&#8217;s the same thing with page caching locally on the host and page cache on the edge with Cloudflare or a similar solution.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s always better if Cloudflare wants to cache your homepage that when you deliver the page to Cloudflare, if you can give a cached version that&#8217;s way faster than taking two to three seconds for time to first byte to then deliver it to Cloudflare. So I think it&#8217;s important to consider these aspects in the performance strategy and get things, there might be some little fine-tuning or issues to iron out as you&#8217;re rolling out caching, and a lot of planning is usually a good idea with clients asking them what&#8217;s the typical user journey? What different types of users and avatars do we have on the site? How do they navigate through the site so that we can make sure we&#8217;re considering all types of users? Also for employees, the customers are the ones giving money to the WooCommerce store, but the people who need to work on the backend processing orders, support tickets, that kind of stuff, I think it&#8217;s important they have a good experience as well, and you won&#8217;t be able to use page caching as much for them, but there&#8217;s certain object caching and similar techniques you can use for their tasks daily that can make it a better experience.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>They get more productive, store owners are happier and all of that stuff.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />And then you have the cart pages and the checkout pages, which obviously cannot be page cached. Maybe parts of it can be object cached because there are elements in there that are repetitive for all customers, but then it goes back to what we were saying before about hosting, right? For those pages, you need to rely on the quality of the CPU, memory, SSD and all of that to render those pages fast enough because it&#8217;s not just enough to do a fast homepage and category pages and product pages. If people get to the cart and then to the checkout and the page takes 10 seconds to load, you just basically lost the client right there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it&#8217;s something to really get nailed down. I think it&#8217;s okay for the final checkout when people press after they&#8217;ve added their billing details, credit card number, all of that, pressing that final button, it needs to communicate with the payment gateway or API calls back and forth. I think people accept and understand that that could take a bit of time…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />Like that everywhere in every single site,</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />But getting to that stage shouldn&#8217;t take long. I think especially with mobile browsers nowadays, you can autofill pretty much all of the fields and WooCommerce is so popular and widespread that unless you&#8217;ve done a lot of customization to the fields or whatever like the Google Chrome Safari or whatever, I think we&#8217;ll be able to figure it out. We can&#8217;t cache those pages, but it&#8217;s still, so maybe you might be able to do some fragment caching if you still have the menu in there and it&#8217;s a mega menu, super complicated. We could cache that, so that&#8217;s not taking up unnecessary time. I don&#8217;t think that many users are going into the menu at…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />That point. Yeah,</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />Or you might have a footer, I&#8217;ve seen this before. We have a footer widget or some piece that is contacting Instagram or doing something else blocking the right page and the user isn&#8217;t even going to see it, but it still is preventing the checkout flow from progressing…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />Quickly. Yeah, I was going to take the last minutes that we have for this episode. Just to sum quickly, so we have chosen our hosting company, we have chosen our theme and we have a set of plugins that we chose. We learned about caching and what the different caching versions are, and now we&#8217;ve installed everything and we run the website and it&#8217;s slow. The website is not moving at all. Then we need to talk about, and we&#8217;ve already talked about core web vitals, so we have different diagnosing tools that we can use to understand why the site is slow, because if we followed all of the advice that we&#8217;re given, we&#8217;ve chosen the right hosting, the theme is not big, the number of plugins is reduced, and we only have the ones that we really need. We&#8217;ve tweaked, we spent hours tweaking the caching and the site is still taking two seconds to load the homepage. For example, core web vitals are the first thing to go to and to measure. How do you do that? How do you measure core web vitals?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />Yeah, there&#8217;s definitely using a front-end tool like Google PageSpeed Insights, GTmetrix, WebPageTest. We&#8217;ve seen those at the perf now</p>\n\n\n\n<p>conference…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />PerfNow Conference. Yes,</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />They all run some piece of Lighthouse nowadays. You used to have to use Google PageSpeed Insights, it&#8217;s called I think something else now. Anyway, web.dev/measure. So they all just have different ways of running Lighthouse and then presenting the data to you differently. So I like WebPageTest the most. It&#8217;s the geekiest, so it could be quite overwhelming for people. I think GTmetrix does a really good job of presenting the data in a more digestible way that isn&#8217;t overwhelming and it gives you a good amount of insights and Google PageSpeed. I think because it&#8217;s the official Google tool, people like to use that and it feels like it&#8217;s more credible, trustworthy…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />And it will tell you also about SEO because you want to appear on Google results and at the top eventually, and that particular tool will give you more information about that specific part of the performance.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />It tells you if you&#8217;re failing the core web vitals for that particular page or for your entire website, depending on how much traffic you&#8217;re getting. I believe WebPageTest does that as well. It has the crux Google Chrome user experience metrics, but that&#8217;s only Chrome data, which is important to remember. It&#8217;s the same thing on PageSpeed Insights that it&#8217;s not collecting that information from other non-Google Chrome browsers. But yeah, those tools, I mean we can do a whole workshop on those. There&#8217;s a bunch of courses on them, so advanced and rich in what they can do. But yeah, that&#8217;s why a lot of people, they come to me and they say, Hey, I ran this and it&#8217;s slow. I don&#8217;t understand this report. Sometimes those reports are oversimplified where there&#8217;s a lot of pieces that they miss or that they say, oh, the LCP element is this, and it&#8217;s like, well, why is it taking eight seconds? Usually it&#8217;s JavaScript related or something else, but it could also be the time the first byte was six seconds, so that takes someone who has experience and to decrypt, I think, or understand things more.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />Do you have a favorite tool?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />Well, no, it&#8217;s basically just the ones that you talked about, but what I think is the most important one, I don&#8217;t want to say there&#8217;s a most important one, but I do feel like the Google&#8217;s tool is a good starting point for people to understand a little bit what&#8217;s going on because they also give, I don&#8217;t want to say simple instructions on how to fix those because they&#8217;re not, probably not simple when they say to reduce image sizes or when they say to lazy load some scripts and all of that stuff. Usually as a store owner, you don&#8217;t really know what to do, and even as a developer, you suddenly think, oh, so if I just lazy load all this stuff and I just delay all the loading of the JavaScript, that will fix it. But then I start thinking, oh, how do I determine which ones are not necessary and how do I determine which ones the clients need if they change something on a homepage? Suddenly it&#8217;s the script that does this funny animation or has this slider going on. So it&#8217;s very hard for people to understand, and I think Google&#8217;s tool is the one that gives you a starting point to start figuring out what&#8217;s going on. They do this coloring with red, yellow, and I think that&#8217;s all the colors, the important colors they use to pinpoint all the most important parts of it, and if you manage to figure out some of those points, you&#8217;re already in a good starting point and then you can use all the other tools you mentioned to just fine tune specific parts of it. But once you have the results and once you have some indications on the website specifically what&#8217;s going on, being it a section of the website, an image problem, JavaScript problem, whatever it is, then it basically comes back to the theme setup and how to properly set up the theme.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Usually if you go with an existing theme, there are options that you can turn on and off and by those on and off, you will then obviously maybe not load some of the scripts if the theme is done properly, if they have taken care of just not loading scripts they don&#8217;t need for that particular page. This is where page builders come in very handy, and that&#8217;s why I&#8217;m a huge, huge fan of Gutenberg and all the Gutenberg experience because it&#8217;s very performance-focused. But then again, you will optimize the heavy scripts, the styles, you will disable some theme features. As we talked about, mobile performance is also something that you will fine tune and then you suddenly… Let&#8217;s move on to the story and end with this. Then suddenly you realize, okay, I&#8217;ve fixed all of these problems. I have a faster website. I have fixed most of the problems they were told to me to fix. How do you keep record of the website&#8217;s performance and how do you go about making sure that this first initial tweak that you did is going to keep up with your website and you&#8217;re going to maintain all of that performance throughout the whole existence of the website? What is your tip as a final tip on how developers or clients can diagnose the performance throughout the whole time that it exists?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />Yeah, I&#8217;ll make it short. I think it&#8217;s important to focus on both lab tests, which are these synthetic tests you run through GTmetrix and other tools, and then also look at the real user metrics, which is what actual people are experiencing, and then diagnose as much as you can using those tools and having some kind of performance budget in mind in terms of what kind of space do we have for, what are we going to allow for the LCP to be? What are we going to allow for the time to first byte to be? How much JavaScript, what&#8217;s the overall payload for the entire front page that we&#8217;re going to allow to be not larger than 500 kilobytes, for example, would be great. Sometimes it might be way larger and sort of tracking with a spreadsheet or screenshots or whatever you can, and sort of dating those to make sure that things are staying within your thresholds that you&#8217;ve defined, I think is a good starting point unless you have a whole performance team dedicated.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>What we&#8217;ve seen at the conference, these big companies like IKEA, they have dedicated performance teams whose job is to make sure everything is running smoothly and they interface with the departments. I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s realistic for a lot of companies, but we can still take some of the ideas and sort of track things. I think that most importantly is don&#8217;t just assume that once you&#8217;ve made a change performance-wise or whatever, that it&#8217;s going to persist indefinitely forever because the website is usually a living, breathing thing. You do updates to the plugins, etc. People tend to add more features and sometimes a plugin update can introduce a new performance bottleneck and it&#8217;s important to match that…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />Or changing the homepage, or you have a different hero section, you have something different in your homepage and you suddenly think it looks way better. I&#8217;m going to sell a lot more, and then it suddenly affects one of the key metrics, for example.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />Yeah, exactly. If someone has hired a designer to implement something and you&#8217;re like, oh, this is beautiful, but the page has increased to five megabytes and all your metrics are way, way off, now aesthetically it might be better, but you&#8217;re going to end up losing money. In my experience, so I think having it in your workflow, whatever size company you are, to do some kind of testing to make sure that the performance is still good after you&#8217;ve made major changes or even minor ones. I think it&#8217;s important because people, business owners, will always check the money side of things and when they notice all of a sudden that conversion rates are down or have been trending downwards over a few months and they feel it in their wallet, that&#8217;s a very frustrating position to be in and it&#8217;s nicer to catch…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />And they usually probably think, oh, it&#8217;s something with my marketing or advertisement, or there&#8217;s something with the products or reviews and they usually don&#8217;t think it might be the performance part of the website that is damaging their sales.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />Yeah, exactly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />So regularly monitoring the site performance is our advice as a last piece of advice for today&#8217;s episode. New Relic, it doesn&#8217;t store information that much, but it is a tool that you can use to just analyze regularly your website&#8217;s performance. Google PageSpeed Insights is something that some of the hosting providers have embedded in their system and some of them can also give you some notifications if you reach certain values that are not recommended. And I think GTmetrix, I&#8217;m not sure, is the one that you can also buy a subscription and have it regularly measure and analyze your website and send you insights to your inbox for you to be aware of…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />Yeah, GTmetrix actually even lets you, if you pay them a subscription, you can have it alert you if certain metrics have exceeded. If you say, I don&#8217;t want LCP larger than 2.5 for your product category page or whatever, it will actually send you an email and alert. And that goes back to the proactivity aspect, right? Where it&#8217;s better to find that out and do something about it immediately rather than finding out three months later. And revenue is down, morale…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />And it also provides actionable recommendations as well. All right, so we talked about a bunch of stuff today. CDN, database optimization, image optimization, lazy loading, plugins, themes, performance key metrics, all of that could be potentially a bunch of other episodes that we&#8217;ll talk about. And actually it would be cool to bring somebody else as a guest to talk specifically about some of these key aspects. As a last recommendation, I think we can also talk about the PerfNow conference that happens in November in Amsterdam. You&#8217;ve been going to the conference before and you&#8217;ve recommended that conference to me last year and I went there last year with you. And</p>\n\n\n\n<p>although within WordPress and WooCommerce we&#8217;re only used to go to the WordCamps and the different versions of those, PerfNow has… I haven&#8217;t seen the word WordPress ever in their website, but it has so much to do with our work and it has so much to do with the development work we do for WordPress. So I definitely recommend people checking out PerfNow. It happens in Amsterdam in November, it&#8217;s a conference that is not as big as any WordCamp, Europe or US or Asia that we&#8217;ve seen. And you get out of there with the will to just go back to your clients and say, hey, I&#8217;m going to make your website a lot faster now because I understand performance there. Would you recommend PerfNow as well?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />Oh, absolutely. The people who build the tools that we use and they&#8217;re pioneers of front-end performance and are sharing these incredible stories, a lot of them work for big companies and they give you real case studies where we&#8217;re talking millions of dollars at stake from making certain changes. And it always reinvigorates me every time I go where I&#8217;m like, oh, I need to build this now and we&#8217;re going to introduce this to clients and make everything better for them. If you&#8217;re a real performance enthusiast and love this stuff. I haven&#8217;t found a conference that&#8217;s more exhilarating than PerfNow and the people are super friendly. The vibe is really, really cool there. When we were there last…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />And just being able to talk to the people who built all of these tools, they actually have something to say about what&#8217;s coming next and give advice on the evolution of all of this. So it seems also like you go to that conference and you&#8217;re in the future for the next one or two years and see what&#8217;s going to happen, what&#8217;s important. And the fact that you as a developer can offer that to the client and make money out of it and sort of turn yourself into their magician and do stuff that nobody else can do, that is super important.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mike:<br />Yeah. It sets you apart for sure.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Marcel:<br />All right, this is it for our episode. Thank you so much for listening in and I hope to meet you guys in the next one.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n\n<p>In this episode of <strong><em>Woo DevChat</em></strong>, <strong>Marcel</strong> and <strong>Mike</strong> explore the critical importance of website performance for WooCommerce stores. They discuss key factors such as hosting quality, theme selection, plugin management, and caching techniques, offering practical advice for optimizing site speed and user experience. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>The conversation also highlights the significance of core web vitals and the tools available for diagnosing and maintaining website performance. </p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Takeaways</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Importance of Website Performance</strong>: Fast website speed is crucial for first impressions, user satisfaction, and conversion rates. It directly impacts SEO and profitability.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Hosting Quality</strong>: Choosing the right hosting provider with adequate resources, good data centers in the target region, and features like CDN integration and application performance monitoring is foundational for optimal website performance.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Theme Selection</strong>: Custom themes often outperform commercial themes in terms of speed and performance. It&#8217;s essential to control the scripts and features loaded to maintain a fast and efficient site.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Plugin Management</strong>: Limit the number of plugins and ensure the ones you use are high-quality and necessary. Multiple plugins performing the same function can slow down the site.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Caching Techniques</strong>: Implementing effective caching strategies, including page caching, object caching, and browser caching, can significantly improve website speed.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Core Web Vitals</strong>: Regularly monitor key metrics such as Largest Contentful Paint (LCP), Time to First Byte (TTFB), and Interaction to Next Paint (INP) to ensure optimal performance.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Perceived Performance</strong>: Techniques like lazy loading and preloading critical resources can enhance the perceived speed of the website, improving the user experience.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Regular Performance Monitoring</strong>: Continuously track and test website performance using tools like Google PageSpeed Insights, GTmetrix, and WebPageTest to maintain and improve site speed over time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Expert Insights</strong>: Consulting with professionals and attending conferences like PerfNow can provide valuable insights and strategies for maintaining a high-performing WooCommerce store.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 17 Jul 2024 08:30:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:32;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:9:\"Matt: 6.6\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=117442\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:26:\"https://ma.tt/2024/07/6-6/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:643:\"<p>A <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/news/2024/07/dorsey/\">nice new WordPress 6.6 is out</a>, our 50<sup>th</sup> release, on the same day people are getting hit with <a href=\"https://x.com/nicocerdeira/status/1812917905501364424\">huge bills from Webflow</a>. I really enjoy working in Open Source. There is no more customer-centric license. There&#8217;s some really fun stuff cooking, too, I can&#8217;t wait to show y&#8217;all.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>50 releases&#8230; wow. No matter what happens in the world, we&#8217;re just going to keep cranking. Three times a year. Relentlessly. A little better each time. Don&#8217;t believe me, just watch.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 17 Jul 2024 06:36:41 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:33;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:46:\"WordPress.org blog: WordPress 6.6 “Dorsey”\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:35:\"https://wordpress.org/news/?p=17517\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:42:\"https://wordpress.org/news/2024/07/dorsey/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:62955:\"<img width=\"1024\" height=\"683\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2024/07/Release-Edition-Inline-Image-1.png?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-17529\" />\n\n\n\n<p>Say hello to WordPress 6.6 “Dorsey,” named after the legendary American Big Band leader, Tommy Dorsey. Renowned for his smooth-toned trombone and compositions, Dorsey’s music captivated audiences with its emotional depth and vibrant energy.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Let your heart swing, sing, and sway to the deep brass notes of&nbsp;<a href=\"https://open.spotify.com/playlist/37i9dQZF1DZ06evO2TT3Ge?si=d9872e46371c4ed7\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Dorsey’s Big Band sound</a>&nbsp;as you explore the new features and enhancements of WordPress 6.6.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Hello, 6.6!</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>WordPress 6.6 delivers on the promise of a better web by bringing style, finesse, and a suite of creative possibilities to your site-building experience. This version helps you do more with ease, putting enhanced tools at your fingertips and giving you unprecedented power behind the scenes. You will find more ways to create beautiful, coherent design elements across your site, a new layout for quick page previews in the Site Editor, and the safety of automatic rollbacks for failed plugin auto-updates—among many other highlights.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In addition to the new features, “Dorsey” continues to deliver the performance and accessibility gains you can expect from every WordPress release. Explore what WordPress 6.6 has to offer and get ready to let its features take your sites to new heights.</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-buttons is-layout-flex wp-block-buttons-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-button\"><a class=\"wp-block-button__link wp-element-button\" href=\"https://wordpress.org/wordpress-6.6.zip\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Download WordPress 6.6 “Dorsey”</a></div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What’s inside</h2>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Add more design options to block themes</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Create color or font sets to multiply design combinations across one theme. These sets offer more contained design possibilities, allowing visual variety within the site’s broader styling guidelines.</p>\n\n\n\n<img src=\"https://lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/docsz/AD_4nXc7Mg7QzTwFiR7NDQLj6p5m4eddq6MtscZYzTh5QeGqB2sLP3T_t2Io2cqA5QuSixyze9ZVWqsDF9ZD7VscWn0TWA6lCG0OgZ4o5Ar_8MgQta8B3vu3VzJQHYREY9NxUb9J8e3BFESmcnbRwg7g6GuFfguU?key=EV-htfbHG-kjLl6r6s-uKA\" alt=\"\" />\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Simplify your workflow with a new layout for pages in the Site Editor</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>See all of your pages and a preview of any selected page with the new side-by-side layout in the Site Editor.</p>\n\n\n\n<img src=\"https://lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/docsz/AD_4nXfdAh-2XaS_6bdw8YcDZMRpkT0O6oWezPzZT3FzKjoWcxhM4ofivJli8eDRs1pO60wJ7F6YjQblSDop_O8MXQKwRlb_-g8CsFPPVb7hY3vEgIBPLb3tDyrvZZhSZL6Zp-ntXQdB2-ixFVoWaY-Empv3hZQ-?key=EV-htfbHG-kjLl6r6s-uKA\" alt=\"\" />\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Auto-update your plugins with peace of mind</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Enjoy the convenience of plugin auto-updates with the safety of rollbacks if anything goes wrong—offering your site a new level of security, enhanced functionality as it becomes available, and almost no time or bandwidth from you to make it happen.</p>\n\n\n\n<img src=\"https://lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/docsz/AD_4nXc3cOWzosH9yiEDJrkmndXXX4QShj-vVMJJslAlgxCT74ugbYJuRPszdUi2rrCt8fnmZm1fTdJ3DTkKxYh5ImN4b6lvyBI3bsf5nvzWSBtexeldhPGyjYZM4Me1eUzfq9bAzlzlwxVqI5Hf_i9y1NGvKEdc?key=EV-htfbHG-kjLl6r6s-uKA\" alt=\"\" />\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Customize content in synced patterns</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Make content changes in each instance of a synced pattern while maintaining a consistent style across them. Set these overrides for Heading, Paragraph, Button, and Image blocks when placed in a synced pattern.</p>\n\n\n\n<img src=\"https://lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/docsz/AD_4nXdH_at4lSW3-Slznfn7HTOEp11xKp889JaLIj-JY5zATJbqZhNPM5MIVZzhn7J2gGhqRbkIzjGMhkFzfQFXfLpxoXu2MXDcPMCXaACaucFHph4dMrd8jHCqFckpk0HtJhEI_cWHTRDR0343_Ut06sgNgaOw?key=EV-htfbHG-kjLl6r6s-uKA\" alt=\"\" />\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Performance</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>WordPress 6.6 features important updates like removing redundant WP_Theme_JSON calls, disabling autoload for large options, and eliminating unnecessary polyfill dependencies. Other highlights include lazy-loading post embeds, a new <code>data-wp-on-async</code> directive, and templates in the editor that load approximately 35% faster overall.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Accessibility</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>This release includes 58 accessibility fixes and enhancements. These focus on foundational aspects of the WordPress experience, particularly the data views component powering the new site editing experience and areas like the Inserter, which provide a key way of interacting with blocks and patterns.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">And much more</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Visit the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/download/releases/6-6/\">feature showcase</a> for a full overview of all the new features and enhancements in WordPress 6.6.</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-buttons is-layout-flex wp-block-buttons-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-button\"><a class=\"wp-block-button__link wp-element-button\" href=\"https://wordpress.org/download/releases/6-6/\">Check out what&#8217;s new</a></div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Learn more about WordPress 6.6</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Explore <a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/\">Learn WordPress</a> for quick how-to videos, <a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/social-learning/\">online workshops</a>, and other free resources to level up your WordPress knowledge and skills.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/06/25/wordpress-6-6-field-guide/\">WordPress 6.6 Field Guide</a> contains detailed technical information and <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/tag/dev-notes-6-6/\">developer notes</a> to help you build with WordPress and get the most out of this release. Don’t forget to subscribe to the <a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/\">Developer Blog</a> for updates, tutorials, and other helpful WordPress content for developers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>For information about installation, file changes, fixes, and other updates, read the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/documentation/wordpress-version/version-6-6/\">6.6 release notes</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The 6.6 release squad</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Every release comes to you from a dedicated team of enthusiastic contributors who help keep things on track and moving smoothly. The team that has led 6.6 is a cross-functional group of contributors who are always ready to champion ideas, remove blockers, and resolve issues.</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Release Lead: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/matt/\">Matt Mullenweg</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Release Coordinator: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/meher/\">Meher Bala</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Core Tech Lead: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/audrasjb/\">Jb Audras</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Editor Tech Leads: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ellatrix/\">Ella van Durpe</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/vcanales/\">Vicente Canales</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Core Triage Leads: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/oglekler/\">Olga Gleckler</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nhrrob/\">Nazmul Hasan Robin</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Editor Triage Leads: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/fabiankaegy/\">Fabian Kägy</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/colorful-tones/\">Damon Cook</a>&nbsp;</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Documentation Leads: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/juanmaguitar/\">JuanMa Garrido</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jdy68/\">Jenny Dupuy</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/josepmoran/\">Josep Morán</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Marketing &amp; Communications Lead: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/marybaum/\">Mary Baum</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Test Lead: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/annezazu/\">Anne McCarthy</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Design Lead: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/richtabor/\">Rich Tabor</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Performance Lead: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/adamsilverstein/\">Adam Silverstein</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Thank you, contributors</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>The mission of WordPress is to <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/about/\">democratize publishing</a> and embody the <a href=\"https://opensource.org/osd-annotated\">freedoms that come with open source</a>. A global and diverse community of people collaborating to strengthen the software supports this effort.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>WordPress 6.6 reflects the tireless efforts and passion of more than 630 contributors in at least 51 countries. This release also welcomed over 150 first-time contributors!</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Their collaboration delivered more than 1,900 enhancements and fixes, ensuring a stable release for all—a testament to the power and capability of the WordPress open source community.</p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"is-style-wporg-props-long alignfull\"><a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/benniledl/\">!Benni</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/1naveengiri/\">1naveengiri</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jorbin/\">Aaron Jorbin</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/aaronrobertshaw/\">Aaron Robertshaw</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/aatanasov/\">aatanasov</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/abditsori/\">abditsori</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/wpalani/\">Abdulrahman Alani</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/webcommsat/\">Abha Thakor</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/abhi3315/\">abhi3315</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/abhijitrakas/\">Abhijit Rakas</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/abitofmind/\">abitofmind</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kawauso/\">Adam Harley (Kawauso)</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/adamsilverstein/\">Adam Silverstein</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/adamhorne/\">adamhorne</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/adeltahri/\">Adel Tahri</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/adrianduffell/\">adrianduffell</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/aduth/\">aduth</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/aezazshekh/\">Aezaz Shekh</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/chaion07/\">Ahmed Kabir Chaion</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ajfleming/\">ajfleming</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ajitbohra/\">Ajit Bohra</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ajithrn/\">Ajith R N</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/akashdhawade/\">Akash Dhawade</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/wildworks/\">Aki Hamano</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/atachibana/\">Akira Tachibana</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/akmelias/\">akmelias</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/alanfuller/\">Alan Fuller</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/aljullu/\">Albert Juh&#233; Lluveras</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/alesflex/\">alesflex</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/acicovic/\">Alex Cicovic</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/xknown/\">Alex Concha</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/cawa-93/\">Alex Kozack</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ajlende/\">Alex Lende</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/alexstine/\">Alex Stine</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/alexandrebuffet/\">Alexandre Buffet</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/alexminza/\">alexminza</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/firewatch/\">allilevine</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mrfoxtalbot/\">Alvaro G&#243;mez</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/amanias1977/\">amanias1977</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/alh0319/\">Amber Hinds</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/amirthepiper/\">Amir Abbas</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/amisiewicz/\">amisiewicz</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/amitraj2203/\">Amit Raj</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/anamarijapapic/\">Anamarija Papić</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/anlino/\">Anders Nor&#233;n</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/andr3ribeiro/\">Andre Ribeiro</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/afercia/\">Andrea Fercia</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/awetz583/\">Andrea Roenning</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/andraganescu/\">Andrei Draganescu</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/euthelup/\">Andrei Lupu</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/andrewhayward/\">Andrew Hayward</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/l1nuxjedi/\">Andrew Hutchings</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nacin/\">Andrew Nacin</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/azaozz/\">Andrew Ozz</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/andrewserong/\">Andrew Serong</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/oandregal/\">André Maneiro</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/afragen/\">Andy Fragen</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/aneeshd16/\">Aneesh Devasthale</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/angelasjin/\">Angela Jin</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/angelaromana/\">Angela R.L</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/anilvaza/\">Anil Vaza</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ankit-k-gupta/\">Ankit K Gupta</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ankitmaru/\">Ankit Panchal</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/annezazu/\">Anne McCarthy</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/antpb/\">Anthony Burchell</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ant1busted/\">Antoine</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/antonvlasenko/\">Anton Vlasenko</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/aristath/\">Ari Stathopoulos</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/perezcarreno/\">Armando J.</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ambrosiawt/\">Art Smith</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/artemiosans/\">Artemio Morales</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/arthur791004/\">Arthur Chu</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/artpi/\">Artur Piszek</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dextorlobo/\">Arun Sharma</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ideag/\">Arunas Liuiza</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/asheshmagar/\">Ashesh Magar</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/imasikur22/\">Asiqur Rahman</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mohonchandra/\">Asish Chandra Mohon</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/aslamdoctor/\">Aslam Doctor</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/alisongodar/\">asmittle</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/aurooba/\">Aurooba Ahmed</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ayeshrajans/\">Ayesh Karunaratne</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/beryldlg/\">B&#233;ryl de La Grandi&#232;re</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/balub/\">Balu B</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bangank36/\">bangank36</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bartkalisz/\">Bart Kalisz</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/beafialho/\">Beatriz Fialho</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/beaulebens/\">Beau Lebens</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/scruffian/\">Ben Dwyer</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/benlk/\">Ben Keith</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/britner/\">Ben Ritner - Kadence WP</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/benjamingosset/\">Benjamin Gosset</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/benjaminpick/\">Benjamin Pick</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/benjamin_zekavica/\">Benjamin Zekavica</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/benjpw/\">benjpw</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bernhard-reiter/\">bernhard-reiter</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bph/\">Birgit Pauli-Haack</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bissy/\">bissy</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/oldrup/\">Bjarne Oldrup</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/blackbam/\">Blackbam</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/blockify/\">Blockify</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/blogography/\">blogography</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bnewboldbsky/\">bnewboldbsky</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bnjunge/\">bnjunge</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bjorsch/\">Brad Jorsch</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bgoewert/\">Brennan Goewert</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ironprogrammer/\">Brian Alexander</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bacoords/\">Brian Coords</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bgardner/\">Brian Gardner</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bgosnell/\">Brian Gosnell</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/masteradhoc/\">Brian Haas</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bridgetwillard/\">Bridget Willard</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bridgetwes/\">bridgetwes</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/brookemk/\">Brooke</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/freibergergarcia/\">Bruno Freiberger Garcia</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/btpub/\">Bruno Tritsch</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/burnuser/\">burnuser</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/icaleb/\">Caleb Burks</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/stringpiggy/\">Candy</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/cbravobernal/\">Carlos Bravo</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/carlosgprim/\">Carlos G. P.</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/poena/\">Carolina Nymark</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/cbirdsong/\">cbirdsong</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/shireling/\">Chad Chadbourne</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/caercam/\">Charlie Merland</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/cbringmann/\">Chloe Bringmann</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/chouby/\">Chouby</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jazzs3quence/\">Chris Reynolds</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/chrisdotdotdot/\">chrisdotdotdot</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/apermo/\">Christoph Daum</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/christopherplus/\">Christopher</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/butterflymedia/\">Ciprian</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/clarktbt/\">Clark</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/costdev/\">Colin Stewart</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/colind/\">ColinD</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/colle/\">colle</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/comecaramelos/\">comecaramelos</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/cotobago/\">Constantine Vasilyev</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/cookiesfordevo/\">CookiesForDevo</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/coreymckrill/\">Corey McKrill</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/courane01/\">Courtney Robertson</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/craigfrancis/\">Craig Francis</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/crazytonyli/\">crazytonyli</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/cwhitmore/\">Cullen Whitmore</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/curdin/\">Curdin Krummenacher</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/cyrus11/\">cyrus11</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/daledupreez/\">Dale du Preez</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/colorful-tones/\">Damon Cook</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/colorful tones/\">Damon Cook</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dansoschin/\">Dan Soschin</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dansully/\">Dan Sullivan</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/daniguardiola/\">Dani Guardiola</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/talldanwp/\">Daniel Richards</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/darerodz/\">darerodz</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nerrad/\">Darren Ethier (nerrad)</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/darshitrajyaguru97/\">Darshit Rajyaguru</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dav4/\">dav4</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/davecpage/\">Dave Page</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/diggeddy/\">David</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/davidakennedy/\">David A. Kennedy</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/davidbaumwald/\">David Baumwald</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/davidbinda/\">David Biňovec</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/davidabowman/\">David Bowman</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dpcalhoun/\">David Calhoun</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dlh/\">David Herrera</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dkjensen/\">David Jensen</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/justlevine/\">David Levine</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/daviedr/\">David Rozando</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/get_dave/\">David Smith</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/davideferre/\">davideferre</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rxnlabs/\">De\'Yont&#233; W.</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dsas/\">Dean Sas</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/deeppatel8950/\">Deep Patel</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/deepakvijayan/\">Deepak Vijayan</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dingo_d/\">Denis Žoljom</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dmsnell/\">Dennis Snell</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/derekblank/\">Derek Blank</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dsmart/\">Derek Smart</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/designsimply/\">designsimply</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dernin/\">Devin Curtis</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dharm1025/\">Dharmesh Patel</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dhrumilk/\">Dhrumil Kumbhani</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dhruval04/\">Dhruval Shah</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dhruvang21/\">dhruvang21</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dhruvkb/\">dhruvkb</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/diedeexterkate/\">DiedeExterkate</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/diegosomar/\">diegosomar</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dilipbheda/\">Dilip Bheda</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dd32/\">Dion Hulse</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/itsjustdj/\">DJ</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/djzone/\">DjZoNe</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dmpinder/\">dmpinder</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ocean90/\">Dominik Schilling</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/drewapicture/\">Drew Jaynes</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/drrxbracho/\">drrxbracho</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/elrae/\">Earle Davies</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/talksina/\">Elena Brescacin</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ellatrix/\">Ella van Durpe</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/clarkeemily/\">Emily Clarke</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/manooweb/\">Emmanuel Hesry</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/enej/\">Enej Bajgorić</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/garridinsi/\">Eneko Garrido</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/enodekciw/\">enodekciw</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/lopo/\">Enrico Battocchi</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/enricosorcinelli/\">Enrico Sorcinelli</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/annubis/\">Eric-Oliver M&#228;chler</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kebbet/\">Erik</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/erikiva/\">erikiva</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/estelaris/\">Estela Rueda</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/evanltd/\">evanltd</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/fabiankaegy/\">Fabian Kägy</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/gaambo/\">Fabian Todt</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/faisal03/\">Faisal Alvi</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/fanly/\">Fanly</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/iamfarhan09/\">Farhan Ahmed</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/flixos90/\">Felix Arntz</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/firoz2456/\">Firoz Sabaliya</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/flabernardez/\">Flavia Bern&#225;rdez Rodr&#237;guez</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mista-flo/\">Florian TIAR</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/f-j-kaiser/\">Franz Josef Kaiser</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/fushar/\">fushar</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/lunule/\">Gabor Lippert</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/gajendrasingh/\">Gajendra Singh</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/galbaras/\">Gal Baras</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/gwallace87/\">Gale Wallace</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/voldemortensen/\">Garth Mortensen</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/garyj/\">Gary Jones</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mamaduka/\">George Mamadashvili</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/georgestephanis/\">George Stephanis</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/geriux/\">Gerardo Pacheco</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/gierand/\">gierand</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/glendaviesnz/\">Glen Davies</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/blepoxp/\">Glenn Ansley</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/grantmkin/\">Grant M. Kinney</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/gziolo/\">Greg Ziółkowski</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/wido/\">Guido Scialfa</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/priethor/\">H&#233;ctor Prieto</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/hakre/\">hakre</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/hanneslsm/\">hanneslsm</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/hage/\">Hans-Gerd Gerhards</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/haritpanchal/\">Harit Panchal</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/harshgajipara/\">Harsh Gajipara</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/hazdiego/\">Haz</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/heinperu/\">heinvv</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/helgatheviking/\">HelgaTheViking</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/hinnerk/\">Hinnerk Altenburg</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/hbhalodia/\">Hit Bhalodia</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/hitendra-chopda/\">Hitendra Chopda</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/humanify/\">humanify</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/huubl/\">huubl</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/huzaifaalmesbah/\">Huzaifa Al Mesbah</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/iamthomasbishop/\">iamthomasbishop</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ianbelanger/\">Ian Belanger</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ignatiusjeroe/\">ignatiusjeroe</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/imranhasanraaz/\">Imran</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/inwerpsel/\">inwerpsel</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ipstenu/\">Ipstenu (Mika Epstein)</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/isabel_brison/\">Isabel Brison</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/itpathsolutions/\">IT Path Solutions</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ivanottinger/\">ivanottinger</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/weijland/\">Jaap Weijland</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jpstevens/\">Jack Stevens</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jaclync/\">jaclync</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/smithjw1/\">Jacob Smith</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jameskoster/\">James Koster</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jwgoedert/\">James Wesley Goedert</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/xhemals/\">Jamie Speller</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/janboddez/\">Jan Boddez</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jtolleouw/\">Jansen Tolle</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/janthiel/\">janthiel</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jsnajdr/\">Jarda Snajdr</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/szopserwis/\">Jarek Mazurczak</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jarekmorawski/\">jarekmorawski</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jpolakovic/\">Jaroslav \"Dero\" Polakovic</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jason_the_adams/\">Jason Adams</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pbking/\">Jason Crist</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jsnjohnston/\">Jason Johnston</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/madtownlems/\">Jason LeMahieu (MadtownLems)</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/javiercasares/\">Javier Casares</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jayanthparthsarathy/\">jayanthparthsarathy</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jbinda/\">jbinda</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jdekhtiar/\">jdekhtiar</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/audrasjb/\">Jean-Baptiste Audras</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/krokodok/\">Jeff Chi</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jffng/\">Jeff Ong</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jeffpaul/\">Jeffrey Paul</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jeffr0/\">Jeffro</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jeflopodev/\">jeflopo</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jdy68/\">Jenny Dupuy</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jeremyfelt/\">Jeremy Felt</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jeherve/\">Jeremy Herve</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jpry/\">Jeremy Pry</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jeryj/\">Jerry Jones</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/amieiro/\">Jes&#250;s Amieiro</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/onmauitime/\">Jess</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/luminuu/\">Jessica Lyschik</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jhned/\">jhned</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jigar-bhanushali/\">Jigar Bhanushali</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jigar9998/\">Jigar Panchal</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jipmoors/\">Jip Moors</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jivedig/\">JiveDig</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/joedolson/\">Joe Dolson</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/joemcgill/\">Joe McGill</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/joen/\">Joen Asmussen</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/timse201/\">Johannes J&#252;lg</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/johnbillion/\">John Blackbourn</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/johnillo/\">John Espiritu</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/johnny5/\">John Godley</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bitmachina/\">John Hooks</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/johnjamesjacoby/\">John James Jacoby</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jonsurrell/\">Jon Surrell</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jon092/\">jon092</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jaruzek/\">Jonathan</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/psykro/\">Jonathan Bossenger</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/desrosj/\">Jonathan Desrosiers</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/n2erjo00/\">Joni Erkkil&#228;</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/spacedmonkey/\">Jonny Harris</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jordesign/\">jordesign</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jorgefilipecosta/\">Jorge Costa</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/josevarghese/\">Jose Varghese</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/josepmoran/\">Josep Morán</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/josephscott/\">Joseph Scott</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/verygoode/\">Joshua Goode</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jossnaz/\">Jossnaz</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/juanfra/\">Juan Aldasoro</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/juanmaguitar/\">JuanMa Garrido</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jules/\">jules</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/juliemoynat/\">Julie Moynat</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jrf/\">Juliette Reinders Folmer</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/juliobox/\">Julio Potier</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/greenshady/\">Justin Tadlock</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/justnorris/\">justnorris</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jyolsna/\">Jyolsna J E</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kadamwhite/\">K. Adam White</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kafleg/\">KafleG</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kevin940726/\">Kai Hao</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kajalgohel/\">Kajal Gohel</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kamran8176/\">kamran8176</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kapilpaul/\">Kapil Paul</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/karlijnbk/\">Karlijn Bok</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/karolmanijak/\">Karol Manijak</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/thekt12/\">Karthik Thayyil</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/zoonini/\">Kathryn Presner</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/keithdevon/\">keithdevon</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kellenmace/\">Kellen Mace</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ryelle/\">Kelly Choyce-Dwan</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/keoshi/\">keoshi</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kevinwhoffman/\">Kevin Hoffman</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/khokansardar/\">Khokan Sardar</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/killua99/\">killua99</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kirasong/\">Kira Schroder</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kitchin/\">kitchin</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ixkaito/\">Kite</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kjellr/\">Kjell Reigstad</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kkmuffme/\">kkmuffme</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kmvan/\">kmvan</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/knutsp/\">Knut Sparhell</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kovshenin/\">Konstantin Kovshenin</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/koodii/\">koodii</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kristastevens/\">kristastevens</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kristenfisher427/\">kristenfisher427</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/krupajnanda/\">Krupa Nanda</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/krupalpanchal/\">Krupal Panchal</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kushang78/\">Kushang Tailor</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kyleak/\">kyleak</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mlaetitia/\">Lae</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/lanresmith/\">Lanre Smith</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/lgersman/\">Lars Gersmann</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/newyorkerlaura/\">Laura Byrne</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/laurelfulford/\">laurelfulford</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/oncecoupled/\">Lauren</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/laurlittle/\">Lauren Stein</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/wplmillet/\">Laurent MILLET</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/peexy/\">Laurent Naudier</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/leemon/\">leemon</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/0mirka00/\">Lena Morita</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/leonidasmilossis/\">Leonidas Milosis</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/lgladdy/\">Liam Gladdy</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rudlinkon/\">Linkon Miyan</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/liviopv/\">liviopv</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/louiswol94/\">Louis Wolmarans</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/thelovekesh/\">Lovekesh Kumar</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/luan-ramos/\">Luan Ramos</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/luboslives/\">luboslives</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/crixu/\">Lucas</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/gigitux/\">Luigi Teschio</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/lardsax/\">Luis</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/lmartins/\">Luis Martins</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/interdevel/\">Luis Molina (interdevel)</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/luisherranz/\">luisherranz</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/lyonmuller/\">Lyon M&#252;ller</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pagelab/\">M&#225;rcio Duarte</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/selectedselections/\">Maddie - a11n</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/madfcat/\">madfcat</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/madhudollu/\">Madhu Dollu</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/onemaggie/\">Maggie Cabrera</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mai21/\">Mai</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/makdiahussain/\">Makdia Hussain</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/manfcarlo/\">manfcarlo</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/manojmaharrshi/\">Manoj Maharrshi</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mdxfr/\">Marc</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/marc4/\">Marc Armengou</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/fullofcaffeine/\">Marcelo de Moraes Serpa</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/iworks/\">Marcin Pietrzak</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mciampini/\">Marco Ciampini</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pereirinha/\">Marco Pereirinha</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/marherumr/\">marherumr</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/chaton666/\">Marie Comet</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/tyxla/\">Marin Atanasov</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/santosguillamot/\">Mario Santos</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/clorith/\">Marius L. J.</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/markhowellsmead/\">Mark Howells-Mead</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/markjaquith/\">Mark Jaquith</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/markjszymanski/\">Mark Szymanski</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mapk/\">Mark Uraine</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mhkuu/\">Martijn van der Klis</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/marybaum/\">Mary Baum</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mat-lipe/\">Mat Lipe</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/imath/\">Mathieu Viet</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mmaattiiaass/\">Matias Benedetto</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/matveb/\">Matias Ventura</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/webdevmattcrom/\">Matt Cromwell</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mattmm/\">Matt Medeiros</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/matt/\">Matt Mullenweg</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mattormeeple/\">Matt Sherman</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/matteoenna/\">Matteo Enna</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/maurodf/\">maurodf</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/hmbashar/\">Md Abul Bashar</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/devsahadat/\">Md Sahadat Husain</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/tofajjal02/\">Md Tofajjal Hossen</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mdnesarmridha/\">MD.NESAR MRIDHA</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/immeet94/\">Meet Makadia</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/meetmehta1205/\">Meet Mehta</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/megane9988/\">megane9988</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/meher/\">Meher Bala</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/hrkhal/\">Michael James Ilett</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/czapla/\">Michal Czaplinski</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mcsf/\">Miguel Fonseca</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/miguelsansegundo/\">miguelsansegundo</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/misulicus/\">Mihai Joldis</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/miikkamakela/\">Miikka</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/simison/\">Mikael Korpela</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mikehend/\">Mike Henderson</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mmcalister/\">Mike McAlister</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mikeybinns/\">Mikey Binns</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/multidots1896/\">Minal Diwan</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/illuminea/\">Miriam Schwab</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/presents111/\">miya</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mkismy/\">mkismy</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mobarak/\">Mobarak Ali</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mohitdadhich10/\">Mohit Dadhich</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/monzuralam/\">Monzur Alam</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jucaduca/\">Morais Junior</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mrwweb/\">mrwweb</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/devmuhib/\">Muhibul Haque</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mujuonly/\">mujuonly</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mukesh27/\">Mukesh Panchal</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/faguni22/\">Mumtahina Faguni</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/musannifzahir/\">Musannif Zahir</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/amustaque97/\">Mustaque Ahmed</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/myhro/\">myhro</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mykolashlyakhtun/\">mykolashlyakhtun</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nsinelnikov/\">Mykyta Synelnikov</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/assassinateur/\">Nadir Seghir</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/naeemhaque/\">Naeem Haque</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/namithjawahar/\">Namith Jawahar</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/narenin/\">Narendra Sishodiya</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nareshbheda/\">Naresh Bheda</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nateinaction/\">Nate Gay</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nhrrob/\">Nazmul Hasan Robin</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nazmul111/\">Nazmul Hosen</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nboot8/\">nboot8</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nendeb/\">nendeb</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/neotrope/\">neotrope</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ndiego/\">Nick Diego</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nicmare/\">nicmare</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nico23/\">Nico</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/niktat/\">Nicolas Tatarchenko</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nicolefurlan/\">Nicole Furlan</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bgnicolepaschen/\">Nicole Paschen Caylor</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nicomollet/\">nicomollet</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nidhidhandhukiya/\">nidhidhandhukiya</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nielslange/\">Niels Lange</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nihar007/\">Nihar Ranjan Das</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ntsekouras/\">Nik Tsekouras</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rabmalin/\">Nilambar Sharma</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nilovelez/\">Nilo Velez</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/niravsherasiya7707/\">Nirav Sherasiya</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nithi22/\">Nithin John</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nithins53/\">Nithin SreeRaj</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nkeller15/\">nkeller15</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/noruzzaman/\">Noruzzaman</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nosilver4u/\">nosilver4u</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/obliviousharmony/\">obliviousharmony</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ohia/\">Ohia ᚛ᚈᚐᚂᚐᚋᚆ᚜</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/okat/\">okat</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dargus/\">Old account</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/oglekler/\">Olga Gleckler</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/domainsupport/\">Oliver Campion</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/webgarten/\">Oliver Schmid</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/olliejones/\">OllieJones</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/alshakero/\">Omar Alshaker</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/omerkurd/\">omerkurd</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/paaljoachim/\">Paal Joachim Romdahl</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pablohoneyhoney/\">Pablo Honey</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pacicio/\">Pacicio</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pls78/\">Paolo L. Scala</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/papijo/\">papijo</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/swissspidy/\">Pascal Birchler</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/patricia70/\">Patricia BT</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/lumiblog/\">Patrick Lumumba</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pbearne/\">Paul Bearne</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pbiron/\">Paul Biron</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pauldewouters/\">Paul de Wouters</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/paulkevan/\">Paul Kevan</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/paulwilde/\">Paul Wilde</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/paulopmt1/\">Paulo Trentin</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pavanpatil1/\">Pavan Patil</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pavelevap/\">pavelevap</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pedromendonca/\">Pedro Mendon&#231;a</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/peiche/\">peiche</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pers/\">Per S&#248;derlind</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/perryrylance/\">perryrylance</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/provenself/\">Peter Rubin</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/peterwilsoncc/\">Peter Wilson</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/petitphp/\">petitphp</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/petralian/\">petralian</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mr2p/\">Phi Phan</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nekojonez/\">Pieterjan Deneys</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/wppinar/\">Pinar</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pitamdey/\">Pitam Dey</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pkuliga/\">pkuliga</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pooja1210/\">Pooja N Muchandikar</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ppolo99/\">ppolo99</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/praful2111/\">Praful Patel</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pranitdugad/\">Pranit Dugad</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/prasadkarmalkar/\">Prasad Karmalkar</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pmbaldha/\">Prashant Baldha</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pratiklondhe/\">Pratik Londhe</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/freewebmentor/\">Prem Tiwari</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/presskopp/\">Presskopp</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/presstoke/\">presstoke</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/printsachen1/\">printsachen1</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/priyanshii5/\">Priyanshii Vijayvargiya</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/prottoysarkar/\">Prottoy Sarkar Argho</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/quietnoise/\">QuietNoise</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rachelbaker/\">Rachel Baker</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rafaelgalani/\">Rafael Galani</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rafaucau/\">Rafał Całka</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/lamarajan/\">Rajan Lama</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rajinsharwar/\">Rajin Sharwar</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rahmohn/\">Ramon Ahnert</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rcorrales/\">Ramon Corrales</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ramonopoly/\">Ramon James</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/raquelandefeld/\">Raquel</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ravipatel/\">Ravikumar Patel</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ravinderk/\">Ravinder Kumar</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rejaulalomkhan/\">Rejaul Alom Khan</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/defries/\">Remkus de Vries</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/tabrisrp/\">Remy Perona</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/renishsurani/\">renishsurani</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/retrofox/\">retrofox</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/youknowriad/\">Riad Benguella</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rdcoll/\">Rich Collier</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/richtabor/\">Rich Tabor</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rockfire/\">Richard Korthuis</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/richardevs/\">richardevs</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rcreators/\">Rishi Mehta</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/noisysocks/\">Robert Anderson</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/robertghetau/\">Robert Ghetau</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/littlerchicken/\">Robin Cornett</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rodionov201/\">rodionov201</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kreppar/\">Rodrigo Arias</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rodrigosprimo/\">Rodrigo Primo</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rogermedia/\">Roger</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rolfsiebers/\">Rolf Siebers</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/roytanck/\">Roy Tanck</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/rmccue/\">Ryan McCue</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ryancurban/\">Ryan Urban</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/welcher/\">Ryan Welcher</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/sebastienserre/\">S&#233;bastien SERRE</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/sergiomdgomes/\">S&#233;rgio Gomes</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/soean/\">S&#246;ren W&#252;nsch</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/s0what/\">s0what</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/sagarprajapati/\">Sagar Prajapati</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/sahilthakur02/\">sahilthakur02</a> · <a 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href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/saxonafletcher/\">Saxon Fletcher</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/saxonfletcher/\">Saxon Fletcher</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/scribu/\">scribu</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/script2see/\">script2see</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/sean212/\">Sean Fisher</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/sergeybiryukov/\">Sergey Biryukov</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/flexseth/\">Seth Miller</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/smrubenstein/\">Seth Rubenstein</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/shailu25/\">Shail Mehta</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/sh4lin/\">Shalin Shah</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/cafenoirdesign/\">Shannon Smith</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/shaunandrews/\">shaunandrews</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/sheulyshila/\">sheulyshila</a> · <a 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href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/snehapatil02/\">Sneha Patil</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/sourav08/\">Sourav Pahwa</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/spencerfinnell/\">Spencer Finnell</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ryokuhi/\">Stefano Minoia</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/sabernhardt/\">Stephen Bernhardt</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/stephenbrook/\">Stephen Brook</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/netweb/\">Stephen Edgar</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/stephenmiracle/\">stephenmiracle</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/steveariss/\">Steve Ariss</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/stevejonesdev/\">Steve Jones</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/steveblum/\">steveblum</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/strangehill/\">strangehill</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/strarsis/\">strarsis</a> · <a 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· <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/webmandesign/\">WebMan Design &#124; Oliver Juhas</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/websitegenii/\">websitegenii</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/wesatintellitonic/\">wesatintellitonic</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/westonruter/\">Weston Ruter</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/whaze/\">whaze</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/skorasaurus/\">Will Skora</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/earnjam/\">William Earnhardt</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nestea29950/\">WilliamG</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/wojtekn/\">Wojtek Naruniec</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/wpsoul/\">wpsoul</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/yagniksangani/\">Yagnik Sangani</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/yankiara/\">yankiara</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/collet/\">Yann</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/yguyon/\">Yannis Guyon</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/fierevere/\">Yui</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/yukinobu/\">Yukinobu Asakawa</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/yuvrajsinh2211/\">Yuvrajsinh Sisodiya</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/zackkrida/\">Zack Krida</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/zackkatz/\">zackkatz</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/zafarkamal/\">Zafar Kamal</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/zeelthakkar/\">zeelthakkar</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/zenaulislam/\">Zenaul Islam</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/zieladam/\">zieladam</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/zkarj/\">zkarj</a> · <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/zunaid321/\">Zunaid Amin</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p>More than <a href=\"https://translate.wordpress.org/stats/\">60 locales have translated 90 percent</a> or more of WordPress 6.6 into their language. Community translators are working hard to ensure more translations are on their way. Thank you to everyone who helps make WordPress available in 200 languages.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Last but not least, thanks to the volunteers who contribute to the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/support/\">support forums</a> by answering questions from WordPress users worldwide.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Get involved</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Participation in WordPress goes far beyond coding, and learning more and getting involved is easy. Discover the teams that come together to <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/\">Make WordPress</a> and use <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/contribute/\">this interactive tool</a> to help you decide which is right for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">6.6 haiku</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Six-point-six is here.<br />Make it all gorgeous; keep it<br />On brand, and relax.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 16 Jul 2024 16:51:48 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14:\"Matt Mullenweg\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:34;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:77:\"Do The Woo Community: Open SaaS, WooCommerce and Enterprise with Nate Stewart\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=84670\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:57:\"https://dothewoo.io/open-saas-woocommerce-and-enterprise/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:44410:\"<div class=\"wp-block-group has-border-color has-light-gray-background-color has-background has-small-font-size has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-48 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p class=\"has-secondary-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-9acf640b7ba38a84a982fc35d618387f\">This show is sponsored by&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-vertical is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-47 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-10 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-46 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-base-background-color has-background wp-container-content-19 has-global-padding is-content-justification-left is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-45 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<img width=\"693\" height=\"693\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/dothewoo.io/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Cloudways-.png?resize=693%2C693&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-78795\" />\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-container-content-20\"><strong><a href=\"https://www.cloudways.com/en/?utm_source=dothewoo&utm_medium=Inlines&utm_campaign=dothewoopodcast\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Cloudways</a></strong>: Managed cloud hosting from <strong>Cloudways</strong> gives you the assurance that your hosted site is fast, secure and backed by 24/7 support is important to you.</p>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\nEpisode Transcript\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p>Jonathan:<br />Welcome to another episode of Do the Woo. I&#8217;m your co-host, Jonathan Wold, and with me today is your other co-host, Tammie Lister. Tammie, how are you?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tammie:<br />I&#8217;m good, thank you. How are you?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />I am excellent. Excited to be doing the Woo once again. We are joined today by Nate Stewart. He is the VP of Platform Strategy at BigCommerce. Nate, welcome.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />Hi. Happy to be here.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />And where in the world are you joining us from today?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />In Puerto Rico.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />How is the climate in Puerto Rico this time of year?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />It&#8217;s great. You know, we just had a hurricane pass through and push a little bit of the humidity out. Now it&#8217;s back to normal, everything&#8217;s fine here. Other than that, it&#8217;s nice and beautiful.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />Excellent. So Nate, you are not a stranger to the show. It&#8217;s just over four years ago, episode 64, you were a guest on Do the Woo. A lot has happened since. What are you working on at BigCommerce these days?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />I&#8217;m working on, believe it or not, some of the same things we talked about, just in more elevated forms. Like, I think a lot of what we talked about last time was more of an ambition to support openness and bring open into the core of BigCommerce. Around that time, we talked a lot about how we&#8217;re open SaaS, like we want to be the open SaaS commerce platform, the leader. And that was more of a future-focused vision of where we wanted to sit in the market, what we wanted to support. Now, a lot of that is reality. We’ve invested multiple years into making that true and that changes a lot, I think, in a good way, of how we work with the WordPress ecosystem, how we work with pretty much everybody&#8217;s way of working. We want to feel like you enjoy and love and cherish a lot of different platforms and technologies and ways of working. And we want to be the platform that makes you feel at home because we trust that you have good taste and you like what you like because it has value. So yeah, all that has kind of become true. I’m really just making sure we get the most value ourselves and everyone else with that strategy.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />I recall. It&#8217;s been great to watch over the years too, that you were talking about that then and there were some hints of it, but BigCommerce’s public position, because you&#8217;re of course a public company, that’s a whole other game to be talking publicly about this open SaaS strategy. It takes time to carry this out. So it&#8217;s interesting to see that it’s like we had that four years ago, you were talking about it. Now you have a lot more evidence that you can point to. Your investment in the WordPress ecosystem is how many, like, is it five plus years now that you&#8217;ve been in this space? Before we had you on the show, you&#8217;d already been at it for a while.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />Yeah, I think definitely in terms of when the first couple of WordCamps, big and small, we were doing research and meeting the community. That was like six, seven years ago. It took some time to build the plugin, but a lot of that was just coming from, at the time, we had hundreds and hundreds of merchants that already had WordPress running alongside their BigCommerce store. It was like, wait a minute, where does this data take us if we keep going? So that led us into the community. And then, I mean, myself, I kind of fell in love with just how it felt almost like what it felt like as I learned the web and grew into the person I am. I was like, oh, this feels true to who I am as well. And I think that&#8217;s just part of why I really fight to stick in any ecosystem where there&#8217;s that truth there and that it resonates with people. It’s not just a bunch of corporate marketing. There’s value beyond it. So yeah, that’s like six, seven years ago. It feels like a totally different world than six, seven years ago. But a lot of what stayed the same is kind of what I’m talking about, you know, at work and in the communities I’m focused on.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />This is a WooCommerce-focused podcast, right? And one of the things that I’ve liked about BigCommerce from the beginning is that you didn’t have this anti-WooCommerce stance, but perception and reality are two different things. And I think early on, a lot of folks, like you had a product, your first plugin, for instance, was focused on more of this small business use case where BigCommerce… Well, let’s start with this. How do you think about the WooCommerce ecosystem? Because you have competitors in the space. You compete with Shopify and other proprietary platforms, but with this open SaaS strategy, how is it that you think about WooCommerce?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />Yeah, I think about it as a major part of the journey for decision merchants looking to easily make their vision a reality. You don’t start by coming onto a platform like BigCommerce and using every feature. You start many times with your marketing presence, with what you know. Some people are already blogging in WordPress and want to create a business, and it makes perfect sense to start there. So Woo is the first place that I feel most people should look because it&#8217;s so well supported. It’s just the default for that space. But then it’s a journey, right? So at which part of the journey does either WordPress or WooCommerce hit a little bit of a snag, where at that point you’re like, wait a minute, I need to get out of WordPress, get out of Woo. I don’t think that’s a positive decision. It shouldn’t be binary. It should be, hey, what part is it working and how do you retain everything you put into it and add on for the next level of your growth? That’s kind of the way I feel about Woo. I have a lot of respect for Woo. I feel a lot of really smart agencies and developers are creating really cool experiences in Woo. I like seeing that. I like seeing innovation in the space because it’s open source, you can do that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />And I think the key for me lies in that open SaaS strategy because we’re no strangers to proprietary platforms that work within our space, like Jetpack and other products like it are proprietary and there’s the SaaS component, but they’re all in on the WordPress ecosystem. Whereas other platforms, like Shopify, it’s zero-sum, right? They want everything there. It’s like you’re choosing Shopify, you’re also doing the CMS and everything. And that’s what stood out to me the most about the approach you guys have taken, embracing the choice. You want to use WordPress, you want to use WooCommerce, that’s fantastic. We’re here to support you. What’s made it clearer, and you tell me Nate, is, as the years have gone on, your emphasis on the enterprise has made a lot more straightforward. Whereas early on, it was more of an overlay because you started out as a small business-focused platform. That enterprise shift has taken a number of years to get to this point.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />Yeah, I mean, I believe we’re on the 15th year of BigCommerce being the name of the company. The backstory is a couple of years before that it was actually like you got the code and you ran it yourself back in the day. And it evolved into a SaaS platform, right? That was because early days, e-comm, it was much harder to scale and support by, you know, much greater, like, let’s say 10X. I don’t know the exact thing, but it just, you wanted, people were reaching out, going, I love this, but I want it hosted for me. And now hosting and other tech has made it to where it&#8217;s less of a, it&#8217;s more fuzzy between open and SaaS. And I think it&#8217;s part of our journey. So we went from the code to SaaS. It was SMB only because in the beginning, e-comm days, we didn’t have all the advanced features we have now. You built a cart, you built a catalog, you built all those pieces. But over the years, you get to where the people that need the most help with their architecture and functionality, they need way more complex features. You naturally get into mid-market and then enterprise. So we&#8217;ve kind of been on that journey, and because we&#8217;ve invested in the open strategy a while ago, it bodes well for enterprise, really well. Typically, that&#8217;s what you see in any software platform landscape. The more enterprise, the more APIs they have, the more ecosystem. Whether you want to get locked into, I would almost say, closed suite versus open suite, you see a lot of those strategies in different ways play out. We are more of the open suite, you know, we want to make it easy to package. And that includes you want to use WordPress and you want to use WooCommerce in a different part of our product catalog, if you will, like our suite. We want to open up pathways to that for the enterprise, and even before that to where it’s not a binary decision. It&#8217;s what’s best for you as you are growing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />And I think a good example of that to me, and we can touch on it more later, is you have products that people don’t know about, like Feedonomics, that have WooCommerce support built into it. It’s a product that’s focused on your product feeds out to various endpoints. And you could use WooCommerce in that. It’s a BigCommerce</p>\n\n\n\n<p>product. The last question I have for you on this topic before we switch gears: WooCommerce has a mission to democratize commerce, which is connected to the WordPress mission to democratize publishing, right? I’d love to hear your thoughts on what role you see BigCommerce playing in supporting that mission. How do you think about that mission?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />Yeah, one that kind of echoes six, seven years ago when I was kind of indoctrinated in the community, the whole 51% I think is maybe the clearest way we help to get to 51% of the web, which much of that is commerce. When you actually look at the longstanding site, I think right now what happens, the trend I’ve seen is when you start in WordPress, you layer on WooCommerce, and then when you hit that decision point of, well, maybe it&#8217;s not as fast as I wanted, or it&#8217;s getting complex for the different plugins and the agencies I&#8217;m working with are quoting that I should migrate off to something else. It&#8217;s at that point where if we make it easier to just uplevel the pieces of your WordPress stack to keep you on WordPress as you evolve, then both WordPress and many times Woo benefit from that. That&#8217;s how you get to the 51% and more. You find those strategies in the WordPress community where there are partners like us that go, hey, let&#8217;s keep that stat. Let&#8217;s keep building it together. I want to see a world where WordPress goes beyond 51% and we are a part of that journey and celebrating together, knowing that we&#8217;re talking about a journey here, not a one-off decision you make when you have a new problem.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tammie:<br />I&#8217;d really like to move us from that. You mentioned the toolkit, the suite, and we looked at how we have this kind of blue. I want to consider the space for commerce and builders. You mentioned this suite. What has been the most exciting thing to explore and experiment with product-wise lately? You mentioned layers and complexities, but what does that feel like building in, and how have you been exploring and building in that? What have you been exploring and building in that even? That&#8217;s a big question.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />Yeah. One of the things that I mentioned earlier, we had hundreds of merchants back in the day, which led us in the direction that were using WordPress on the side, meaning they had their site and then a shop dot. Now because of the plugin, but also because of things like headless and composability, it&#8217;s more nuanced than that. And now with the Gutenberg editor, it&#8217;s been this way for a while. You have blocks and whatnot. You can go, wait, if you already have your marketing site up there and you want to layer on commerce and you&#8217;re already closer to the mid-market enterprise, right? Because you maybe have a big B2B business and you&#8217;re going to B2C. So you&#8217;re already at scale with complexity. Well, I&#8217;ve been plugging with a team a little bit around how would we integrate Gutenberg and existing stuff that you have, you made a decision like your theme and your blocks, into our open-source storefront framework that we built called Catalyst. That way, you get to retain what you built on WordPress and via the Gutenberg kind of standard blocks. So to me, one of the interesting things here is how, and this is an area I&#8217;d like to work more with people to solve. Blocks are almost there. The API, it feels in any like the WP GraphQL and REST, you can get to the point where it feels like it should work 100%, but you run into issues in actual live implementations where, okay, there&#8217;s not really a standard where you can go from WordPress React into static or into now with like Next.js and the newest app router, React server components, how you transition from, I get this block, it&#8217;s a form plugin, I have this type of React running on my headless instance. How do I make it work to where on the front end of the editor it works and then WordPress? I want that to look and feel the same way. That actually gets very complex very quickly. And I think whoever works in solving that problem where we can get there together will radically improve how people are using Gutenberg, how we work through these migration strategies that don&#8217;t push you off of WordPress and off of Woo, but go, hey, this block works well for you here, this block is not performant, should we go headless? Should we just replace that block? Anyway, I&#8217;ve been plugging away with the team about that, working with several different agencies in this space to go, what&#8217;s your opinion? And yeah, there&#8217;s a lot there. I think Gutenberg is really cool, and personally, even on the weekend I&#8217;m hacking around occasionally, you might see me going like, what&#8217;s the new thing? But it&#8217;s funny how, I mean, it&#8217;s been years since it was released and some of those pain points are still there, right? We have to ask ourselves why. If they&#8217;re migrating out because we don&#8217;t know how to use blocks, that&#8217;s not even a core commerce thing. That&#8217;s just in general, I think that more could be done there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tammie:<br />I like how you&#8217;re kind of touching on it by what you are saying, which is you never, you don&#8217;t find those, I always call them stress cases, not edge cases because they cause you stress when you hit them rather than them being edge cases because they might only be for one person, but it could be really important that that one person hits them by the experimentation. So I think one of the answers, and it&#8217;s one of many, is people haven&#8217;t maybe explored some of these combinations. So that&#8217;s what really, for me personally, and I think a lot of people, is curious about these experiments that you&#8217;re doing. But I&#8217;d love, in what you&#8217;ve been creating in your own experiments, how have you discovered this to be uniquely different to building this space? Because it is a little bit uniquely different, these stacks, like you&#8217;ve shared about the complexities and the layers, but it kind of is shifting sands a little bit in places. What are some of the other differences that you&#8217;ve thought about as you are creating these spaces?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />I think one that, again, this is more of a background thought the whole time. One decision we made early on was to do it 100% the WordPress way. And we, everything being in the community and the research and all the agencies and builders we talked to, they’re like, there&#8217;s the WordPress way, you build the template, it&#8217;s PHP, all of that. Gutenberg was happening as that. But no one really, it&#8217;s almost like people didn&#8217;t want it to succeed. It was a very weird feeling, but we got over that hump overall as a community. But during that early, you&#8217;re talking like six years ago plus, that WordPress way kind of limited us in terms of what Gutenberg was really trying to accomplish, which is being more modular, being more JavaScript-forward, React-forward. So now I have this, again, it&#8217;s a background thought of instead of, you know, the plugin being like the WordPress way templates, being more components by default, it&#8217;s really just React as the page loads reading out from an API. And yes, there&#8217;s a downside to, you know, you don&#8217;t have things in the table in the options table and other aspects. There&#8217;s maybe a loading artifact a little bit there where the page loads and then it reads the data. But the benefit is you are fully compatible with the static hosting trend that&#8217;s happening in the WordPress space and overall web development in general. It actually forces you to polish your API on your other end a lot better, making sure that caching and just performance in general is better at the API level. So I feel as a platform that is integrating that mode makes your product better for everyone by integrating that way. So I&#8217;ve had that thought come up a lot. The downside is there’s effort there to change, and there&#8217;s also feedback from the community where there are millions of people that love the WordPress way. And there&#8217;s the thought there, and what does the WordPress way even mean anymore? I&#8217;ve had this thought of it, isn&#8217;t it Gutenberg? Isn&#8217;t it blocks? So yeah, all that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tammie:<br />I think it&#8217;s fascinating that the WordPress way, maybe it should be adapting. Maybe the whole point about the WordPress way is that it isn&#8217;t a fixed way, and we maybe thought it was like chiseled, and it wasn&#8217;t chiseled. I think this is such a fascinating discussion. I want to skip back a couple of steps to something you were saying because you very clearly have an understanding of builders and you very clearly have an understanding both from your own tinkering, I love that word, and exploring. So that translates into what is being created. And I think that is incredibly important when you are creating these suites and trying to also create tools. Can you explain a little bit more how that translates into the products that you are offering as well? Because I think there&#8217;s something in there as well that we&#8217;ve been talking about and getting super excited about the API and the experiments. But how does that then translate into the products?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />So I think we&#8217;re really in this multi-product territory now. You can&#8217;t be truly open if the only way to get value is to combine everything the same way every time. That’s not open. That becomes closed in general, like entering the walled garden. And so I think what we&#8217;ve evolved over the years is formally, we&#8217;ve made acquisitions as a company. You mentioned Feedonomics, they&#8217;re doing very well outside of the BC ecosystem as well as in. They actively support all of our competitors, all our commerce competitors. When you go to feedonomics.com, it&#8217;s very hard to find any mention of BigCommerce. It&#8217;s very much its own product offering. Because we&#8217;re underneath the same umbrella, we work under the same constraints of, okay, when we need to ship a</p>\n\n\n\n<p>feature and it&#8217;s using their technology, we build like a partner would, right? We don&#8217;t have internal things that are cheating. That helps everyone and helps us keep an honest open strategy. That’s why Woo fits into their strategy in a big way. They have many large WooCommerce customers and they have kept them on Woo and WordPress, and that&#8217;s okay because that product still grows their business. Let&#8217;s be honest, it&#8217;s easier to keep people happy if you don’t go into their house and say everything&#8217;s terrible. You can make comments, you know, they might not like the couch, but you don&#8217;t tell them to move. They like their community, right? Another example of this is Makeswift. They&#8217;re a recent acquisition, again, an independent company still like Feedonomics. They are a visual editor for Catalyst and our next-gen storefront. However, if you want to use Makeswift with WordPress, with WooCommerce, with any of our commerce competitors, they don&#8217;t become a competitor. If you like Makeswift, you&#8217;re not ready for BigCommerce, you&#8217;ve invested a lot in your current stack, that&#8217;s fine. There are interesting things with Makeswift because it is composable by nature. It is built from the ground up to support the latest in React and React server components, all that where Gutenberg is more of the default. It is React and the new way, but its APIs and all aren&#8217;t in the same ecosystem. You could technically use the Gutenberg API in the Makeswift visual editor and get the development flow you want while still retaining WordPress. It’s almost like WordPress as I know Jonathan you said in the past as the operating system. It has the API. There are all these interesting things that can happen when we’re multi-product. We&#8217;re not single platform where you buy it as a product. I think that&#8217;s one of the ways that we enable builders in a different way, and each of those separate products have different APIs and ways you can utilize them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />One of the big switches over the past couple of years has been this increasing emphasis on enterprise, right? That&#8217;s the transition that you&#8217;ve been making. Multi-product is a good example of how you carry out that promise. You&#8217;re giving flexibility, especially in the enterprise, where that flexibility matters. They may have policies for using this or that, or they want just a piece of it. That&#8217;s a good example. Let’s talk about enterprise more and start with this: how do you define enterprise? What is that definition within the BigCommerce context?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />Yeah, for us, the way we define enterprise, it&#8217;s more like the size of their annual revenue, their employee count, it’s a blend, and they&#8217;re opting into being a part of our enterprise plan. It&#8217;s nuanced because typically you have a lot of platforms like products out there that are like, we&#8217;re enterprise or not. They come in and it&#8217;s like, okay, they have to be at a hundred million in annual revenue, they have to be XYZ. What we&#8217;ve found is you could have someone with a tremendous amount of revenue and they are very efficient because of the type of product they sell. There are DIYs and a lot of owner-operators, if you will. I believe there are a lot of those in the WordPress ecosystem. It’s known for that. People say, I&#8217;ll do it myself and I actually know how to code, design, and operate it. But that means why should they always pay the price for all the complexity of enterprise when they can handle a lot themselves? They might pay us a little bit less, where they’re not super enterprise, but they&#8217;re paying more in other ways that other people might not be able to pay, which means they’re putting in the blood, sweat, and tears to code and design themselves. But that persona, while they might appear more mid-market in terms of how they&#8217;re using it, they are an enterprise in revenue. We like to make it a real conversation with the brands we serve and everyone involved, where do you want the complexity to be? At the upper level, we handle a lot. Once you get to enterprise and you&#8217;re on an enterprise plan, we handhold a lot more, we&#8217;re a lot more with you building, helping you build, up to the point where you have dedicated people at certain levels of building your business. Some people might look at that and say, yeah, I know I&#8217;m generating a lot of revenue, but I don&#8217;t need that level. My personal opinion is everybody needs help and it&#8217;s going to make you sleep better at night when you have someone in your corner. But that openness goes into, well, let&#8217;s have a conversation. It&#8217;s a fuzzy line for mid-market and enterprise. High level, you&#8217;re talking like 50 million GMV, 25, around that territory, very clearly enterprise. It’s very rare for someone to opt out of that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />This is where I get excited, looking at this through the WooCommerce lens. One of the risks we&#8217;ve seen over the past couple of years is people grow in WooCommerce, they like WooCommerce, they like WordPress, and then they start to hit the edges. There have been some great agencies, many of them coming onto the show, who’ve pushed the edges of WooCommerce and have innovated and figured out ways to make it scale further. And there&#8217;s also this feeling like it wasn&#8217;t designed for that. It&#8217;s an SMB-focused tool. While there&#8217;s a lot of room for growth, one of the things I&#8217;ve been intrigued about and been hoping to see more of is what it looks like to bring that enterprise capability from other players into the WooCommerce space. I think Feedonomics is a good example of that and would love to hear more about how you think about that. How can we, in the WooCommerce space, more successfully bring in enterprise capability? My hypothesis is that we can&#8217;t do it by just changing the core product because we have millions of store owners that count on that SMB approach that WooCommerce has taken. That&#8217;s the question. Right now, when people hit a certain point on WooCommerce and start to feel the edges, I think there&#8217;s a churn risk where people feel like they just have to leave entirely. My hypothesis is that doesn’t have to be the case. That&#8217;s where I see this opportunity with partners like BigCommerce being able to augment. How do you think about that? What would that look like practically?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />Practically, this is one case where being multi-product and having these independent companies that think about each ecosystem, they understand the APIs and aren&#8217;t filtering it through the BigCommerce lens. It means the Feedonomics team, the product knows how WooCommerce works, has a dedicated integration with them, and has been through this process day in and day out. Someone calls up going, hey, my sync, I have these plugins that are for my sales channels or advertising channels, and I&#8217;m getting to the point where it&#8217;s slowing down my site, or I don’t know how to support adding any more. I want to add five more channels. Keep in mind Feedonomics supports like 300 plus, maybe 400 plus, hundreds of sales channels. When things happen, like Target has a marketplace, you&#8217;ll hear our competitors make big announcements about it. But the reality is because Feedonomics is wholly dedicated to that, they&#8217;re working with Target and other marketplaces as the alpha of when they release functionality. There’s a huge benefit to going, all right, I don&#8217;t need to change WooCommerce at all. I&#8217;m already selling on sales channels. Let me get an easier-to-maintain site and way more sales channels. But again, you have to make that choice yourself, or an agency or developer working with a merchant. There is a cost, of course. It&#8217;s an open SaaS platform, but it is a SaaS platform. It&#8217;s a transition from a free plugin that I just have to pay someone to maintain or keep up with updates. It&#8217;s that cost transitioning to dollar cost, but you get the time back and peace of mind. It’s really that type of process. That’s why enterprise comes in. People coming in from, let’s say, they have half a million, a million in GMV, annual revenue, that&#8217;s probably not something that Feedonomics power is necessary for. You can just optimize Woo and the sales channels. But if you have questions like, I have 3 million in revenue, I&#8217;m growing faster than I can update, I have ideas and ambition to go into 10 more channels. Even if your site is working, if you can&#8217;t rapidly add 5, 10, 50 advertising, sales, and whatnot channels, and that’s your ambition, that’s when the right time is to talk. Again, it&#8217;s the journey. We talk a lot about the right journey and the merchant journey, having the right time, right place, rather than going, there’s one solution that fits everyone.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tammie:<br />I&#8217;m going to pivot towards the end and imagine we&#8217;re kind of dreaming a little bit. We spoke about the past four years, but it&#8217;s panning away from products. There&#8217;s so much going on in this space, so many emerging trends, technologies. Let’s think initially for commerce builders, what should you be keeping an eye on if you&#8217;re building in this space now and in the next year? Then we can kind of get a bit dreamy after that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />I&#8217;ve actually seen a lot of different podcasts and articles about this topic in this space recently. Static, and again, I talked about how does Gutenberg in the WordPress ecosystem play with that. Not static as just the end goal because why not? It&#8217;s fast and we should do it more. I think that will improve WordPress as a platform and other platforms integrating with it. If you think about the right separation of concerns and how the technology enables both approaches cleanly. As a builder, going, I&#8217;m building in a way that works for WordPress and its out-of-the-box state and WooCommerce’s out-of-the-box state. What happens next? Someone wants to go static, they want to use</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Next.js, what do you do? Is what you built cleanly able to support that? As we think about our architecture and design of APIs, supporting both is better for everyone. It&#8217;ll create more opportunity for you as a builder, better for the end user. They&#8217;re more likely to stay in the WordPress ecosystem with what they built before because it can be translated into what&#8217;s next. A lot of what I’m talking about, we think deeply about composability and it&#8217;s almost a part of everything strategically that we&#8217;ve worked on recently and will work on in the future because of that reason.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tammie:<br />I definitely align to that. All too often, before it was generally just like commerce, what does the front look like, and how do the transactions happen there? But now it&#8217;s kind of flipped in that sense. I&#8217;m going to flip that question though as well, segue. What buzzwords or tech should commerce creators avoid? Because I think there&#8217;s so much, as you were saying, there&#8217;s like podcasts and it can be really easy to be distracted or pile your feature set too high so that you then get problems. What makes your eye roll when you hear about someone adding and you&#8217;re like, you don&#8217;t need to add that, it&#8217;s not going to work, it&#8217;s not going to help someone?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />Yeah, I definitely think my eye rolls a bit when it&#8217;s AI without purpose. I think that&#8217;s kind of a softball question because a lot of people might say that. But what I mean with AI without purpose is if you&#8217;re chasing a perceptual win where it&#8217;s like, hey, I can have a chat interface here or look, you could ask it to do a theme and it does it. I feel like that&#8217;s removing research and analysis and understanding of the user from it. That&#8217;s just trying to achieve an end goal. Almost like what I said about static, don’t do static just because you hear a podcast about static. Do it because you understand the value of being able to transfer from one type of architecture to another. That changes how you build your thing. AI that has a purpose, like, okay, we&#8217;ve researched exactly how people are using our themes or integrating different APIs and we have a focused use of AI that’s tailor-made to accomplish that task or series of tasks faster. That&#8217;s awesome. I see a lot of people just layering it on. Especially in business, a merchant layering on random AI chat stuff, is it better than ChatGPT? Are you just trying to get a brand for yourself as a builder? I&#8217;m not discounting, some people that&#8217;s great early in your career, write up something and create and be like, hey, look at me. I know how to hit APIs for AI. But the reality is, does it make someone&#8217;s life better? And if it’s just a cool toy but it doesn&#8217;t make it better. That’s the difference. I&#8217;m not saying I know the answer perfectly. I had to look in the mirror and eye roll myself if I&#8217;m heading down. But if we just layered AI on top of that, we&#8217;re all capable of running into that peril of all I need to do is layer x feature or tech and it will solve my entire business.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tammie:<br />I would plus one that so much. I think it is so easy to AI, is it a workflow or is it AI as well as also that thing? Does it get a hurdle? Okay, the last question I’m going to ask here though is kind of, it kind of segues the end of this. Four years from now, you come back on the podcast, what do you hope you have seen? It feels an inevitable one if we&#8217;re talking about the future to give my last question. If we&#8217;re talking about the future, I would say there are a million viewers or listeners of this podcast and you invite me back for some tropical villa special edition thing. I know that has nothing to do with technology. I&#8217;m just trying to put out some optimism and let the universe make it happen.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />I think Bob&#8217;s been talking about that, starting to take the hosts and putting us up. I think we&#8217;re going to get there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tammie:<br />Thank you, Bob. If you do it a year, Bob, I&#8217;d like some puppies if we&#8217;re doing that, that&#8217;s fine.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />I am trying to think about four. I feel kind of echo back on being able to celebrate together, getting WordPress. I don&#8217;t want to say modernize WordPress because I think WordPress is, people don&#8217;t give enough credit for modernizing as it goes. I actually think a lot of people have learned from Gutenberg without admitting it in other ecosystems. Modernize is the wrong word. It&#8217;s more perceptual. I think switching what people feel in the community and an internal perception of, hey, we have modernized, we&#8217;ve been through the pain of bleeding edge, trying to learn this stuff and into the rest of the planet by default going, okay, WordPress is in your stack, that&#8217;s great for these areas. Having a real conversation around it. Leveling the playing field with headless CMS where a lot of people had for years been using WordPress as a headless CMS. We&#8217;re not talking about the full journey, it&#8217;s like, which way are you using it with other parts of technology to get the most out of WordPress, out of WooCommerce at that stage. If in four years we&#8217;re having real conversations around that and we&#8217;ve done the technology work, everyone is better. That’s how you get to over 51% and beyond. It almost becomes like we&#8217;re, it&#8217;s not like WordPress, it could be, and again, I&#8217;m ripping off Jonathan, the WordPress as an OS. You think about Windows, Mac, iOS, all those different things. It’s close there now, but these things have to be solved to know how you interoperate and have all the standards where it doesn’t have to be like every use case is in WordPress. WordPress has to win at every stage of the journey. It has to be where you can hook in and out and get the most out of WordPress. It almost becomes a utility like an operating system long term. In four years, that&#8217;s happening. There will be so many more people using WordPress actively that we probably will be on a tropical villa for that episode because there will be so many new ideas and innovation there. I hope to be a little bit part of that journey.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />It&#8217;s interesting because we&#8217;ve been on this trajectory for a long time. Gutenberg, it is interesting to look back now. At the time, there was a lot of, I would argue that the work that Tammie and many others have done on that transition was in fact the WordPress way. What we see today with themes, we added all this complexity to themes in the WordPress space and now we&#8217;re getting back to how it was originally and things are getting simpler again. It takes a long time though. This vision of WordPress as an operating system for creating on the open web, I think we&#8217;re seeing it play out more and more. E-commerce is a great example of people building and saying, hey, I can create on the web, I want to add business into this context. I really appreciate the work that you guys have been doing at BigCommerce to recognize and be a part of that. That open SaaS strategy fits really well into that. What we see in the future is WordPress just being a ubiquitous part of a stack and a foundation that people can feel like, hey, I own this. It takes a long time though to catch up and bring that parity, features, and ways of doing things that builders need to be able to create confidently on it. Right now, it&#8217;s the people who really believe that are making it happen. That includes folks like yourselves investing into the space. Thank you for that. I look forward to seeing what the next four years bring. Nate, if anyone wants to connect with you further or learn more about what you guys are working on, what&#8217;s the best way to get in touch?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />On LinkedIn, Nate Stewart, search for that. Also Nate.stewart@bigcommerce.com. Feel free to email me. I&#8217;m not really on Instagram randomly taking pictures. I missed that whole thing. Definitely missed TikTok. I have an account on now X but I probably won&#8217;t actively respond. So LinkedIn and email. We also have our developer community. If you are a builder and you go in there and ping me, it&#8217;s a private community that anybody&#8217;s free to join. You go to developer.bigcommerce.com and go to the community section. We actually have a WordPress channel there that you could join in. I would love to see more people talking about how they&#8217;re using WordPress in our community. Or you could just reach out personally. Like I said, we&#8217;re working with a couple of agencies and leaders in the space just to think about what the future is here. The more voices we have that are stress testing that, the better it is.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />Excellent. We’ll also look forward to seeing you at future WordCamps as well. Nate, thanks for coming on and talk to you soon.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tammie:<br />Thank you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nate:<br />Thank you.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n\n<p>In this episode of <strong>Woo ProductChat</strong>, co-hosts <strong>Jonathan Wold</strong> and <strong>Tammie Lister</strong> sit down with <strong>Nate Stewart, the SVP of Platform Strategy at BigCommerce</strong>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Join them as they get into the evolution of BigCommerce&#8217;s open SaaS strategy, the ongoing integration with the WordPress ecosystem, and their innovations on the horizon. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Learn how BigCommerce is working to support WooCommerce&#8217;s mission of democratizing commerce and what trends and technologies are shaping the future of the e-commerce landscape. Plus insights on the journey of building open, scalable commerce solutions.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Takeaways</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>BigCommerce&#8217;s Open SaaS Strategy</strong>: Nate Stewart discusses how BigCommerce has been focusing on openness, aiming to be the leader in open SaaS commerce. This includes integrating well with platforms like WordPress and WooCommerce, and ensuring that merchants can make their visions a reality with flexibility and support.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Enterprise Shift</strong>: BigCommerce has been transitioning towards serving more enterprise-level clients. This shift involves offering more complex features and capabilities while maintaining flexibility and openness to support various business needs.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Integration with WordPress</strong>: The integration with WordPress and WooCommerce has been a significant part of BigCommerce&#8217;s strategy. They focus on supporting merchants at different stages of their journey, ensuring that WordPress and WooCommerce users can continue to scale and grow without needing to migrate off the platform.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Feedonomics and Makeswift</strong>: BigCommerce&#8217;s acquisitions, like Feedonomics and Makeswift, highlight their commitment to providing powerful tools that integrate seamlessly with other platforms. Feedonomics, for instance, supports hundreds of sales channels and works well with WooCommerce, helping merchants manage product feeds efficiently.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Gutenberg and Headless Commerce</strong>: Nate talks about the challenges and opportunities in integrating Gutenberg and headless commerce approaches with BigCommerce. The goal is to allow merchants to use modern technologies while retaining the flexibility and familiarity of WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Future of Commerce</strong>: Looking ahead, the conversation touches on emerging trends like static site generation and the importance of thoughtful AI integration. Nate emphasizes the need for solutions that genuinely improve user experiences rather than just following trends.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Long-term Vision:</strong> The discussion includes a vision of WordPress evolving as an operating system for the open web, supporting various technologies and use cases. This vision includes continuing to modernize WordPress and ensuring it remains a valuable and integral part of the web ecosystem.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Links</h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://www.bigcommerce.com/\">BigCommerce</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/nate-stewart-0095041a/\">Nate on LinkedIn</a></strong></li>\n</ul>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 16 Jul 2024 08:20:24 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:35;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:117:\"Gutenberg Times: New courses on Learn, My Menu theme, Section styles, Playground step library — Weekend Edition 299\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:35:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/?p=29239\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:121:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/new-courses-on-learn-my-menu-theme-section-styles-playground-step-library-weekend-edition-299/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:22495:\"<p>Hello, </p>\n\n\n\n<p>We are a few days away from WordPress 6.6 version hitting a WordPress instance near you. The latest <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/news/2024/07/wordpress-6-6-rc3/\">WordPress 6.6 RC3</a> was released earlier this week. By now most of your testing should be done. Or you wait a few weeks before upgrading. On the Developer Blog <a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2024/07/10/whats-new-for-developers-july-2024/\">What&#8217;s new for Developers (July 2024)</a>, help you sort through all new features and updates coming to WordPress.  </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Contributors are working on what next for Gutenberg, and there will be another <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/09/hallway-hangout-lets-chat-about-whats-next-in-gutenberg-2/\">Hallway Hangout on August 15, 2024, at 15:00 UTC / 9 am EDT</a> to discuss what could be on the Roadmap for 6.7 and beyond.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Exploring my hometown anew is a special treat for us; finding new Restaurants, hanging out in beer gardens and café&#8217;s with friends, shopping at farmers market, walking guided tours, and visiting art exhibitions in one of the seven art museums. It is wonderful to play tourist for a while. The next couple of weeks, I will write from my parent&#8217;s hometown, outside of Munich.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Wishing you a wonderful weekend. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yours, 💕<br /><em>Birgit</em></p>\n\n\n<div width=\"100%\" class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-showhide ng-block\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-light-background-background-color has-background\"><div class=\"wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p><strong>Table of Contents</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<ol><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/new-courses-on-learn-my-menu-theme-section-styles-playground-step-library-weekend-edition-299/#0-word-press-release-information\">Developing Gutenberg and WordPress</a><ol><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/new-courses-on-learn-my-menu-theme-section-styles-playground-step-library-weekend-edition-299/#learn-wordpress-updates\">Learn.WordPress updates</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/new-courses-on-learn-my-menu-theme-section-styles-playground-step-library-weekend-edition-299/#developer-courses\">Developer Courses</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/new-courses-on-learn-my-menu-theme-section-styles-playground-step-library-weekend-edition-299/#upcoming-events\">Upcoming events</a></li></ol></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/new-courses-on-learn-my-menu-theme-section-styles-playground-step-library-weekend-edition-299/#0-p\">Plugins, Themes, and Tools for #nocode site builders and owners</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/new-courses-on-learn-my-menu-theme-section-styles-playground-step-library-weekend-edition-299/#2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled\">Theme Development for Full Site Editing and Blocks</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/new-courses-on-learn-my-menu-theme-section-styles-playground-step-library-weekend-edition-299/#3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press\">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor. </a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/new-courses-on-learn-my-menu-theme-section-styles-playground-step-library-weekend-edition-299/#wordpress-playground\">WordPress Playground</a></li></ol>\n</div></div>\n</div>\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"0-word-press-release-information\">Developing Gutenberg and WordPress</h2>\n\n\n\n<p></p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-accent-color has-light-background-background-color has-text-color has-background has-link-color wp-elements-d93781e1cc752a3c931d2fecfcf49569\">🎙️ Latest episode: <a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-104-block-themes-gutenberg-18-8/\">Gutenberg Changelog #104 – Block Themes, Gutenberg 18.8, WordPress 6.6</a> with special guest Carolina Nymark</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"learn-wordpress-updates\">Learn.WordPress updates</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>The training team started publishing their Learning Pathways courses. </p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/course/beginner-wordpress-user/\">Beginner WordPress User</a> </strong> is a course for WordPress users to learn more about the content management system that houses their content. It holds 25 lessons that users can tackle one at a time, or in single sessions, if they are eager to learn something very specific, for instance, how to use, the <a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/lesson/using-the-media-library-2/\">Media Library</a> or <a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/lesson/understanding-the-difference-between-wordpress-posts-and-pages/\">about the difference between post and pages. </a></p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you design sites for clients, you can guide your clients to a single lesson on the official WordPress site with videos on the official WordPress YouTube channel, that doesn&#8217;t have any advertising nor any other uncontrolled suggested videos. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>The next set of Lessons are for an Intermediate<a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/course/intermediate-wordpress-user/\"><strong> WordPress User</strong></a>. This one lets learners &#8220;delve into advanced features, fine-tune site customization and implement effective content strategies.&#8221; It comprises 37 lessons, also all with individual links, for instance: <a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/lesson/using-the-style-book/\"><strong>Using the style book</strong></a> or <a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/lesson/uncovering-the-cover-block/\"><strong>Uncovering the Cover block</strong></a></p>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/course/beginner-wordpress-user/\"><img width=\"652\" height=\"367\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Text-Guests-Image-block-2-copy-3.png?resize=652%2C367&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-29299\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"developer-courses\"><strong>Developer Courses</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>For aspiring WordPress Developers the training team also released the first course. In 59 Lessons, the <a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/course/beginner-wordpress-developer/\"><strong>Beginner WordPress Developer</strong></a> &#8220;course provides an extensive overview of the basics of almost every development topic relevant to WordPress. While it is geared toward first-time developers, there’s enough information available that it’s worthwhile for veterans in the community to learn something new&#8221;, wrote <strong>Justin Tadlock</strong> in <a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2024/07/10/whats-new-for-developers-july-2024/\">What&#8217;s new for Developers (July 2024)</a></p>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/course/beginner-wordpress-developer/\"><img width=\"652\" height=\"367\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/beginner-developer-learning-pathway.png?resize=652%2C367&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-29298\" /></a><a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/course/beginner-wordpress-developer/\"><strong>Beginner WordPress Developer</strong></a> \n\n\n\n<p>On Learn. WordPress site, there are other developer related courses available which might be an overlap with the current work. They are more deep dives into certain topics. </p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/course/introduction-to-block-development-build-your-first-custom-block/\">Introduction to Block Development: Build your first custom block</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/course/using-the-wordpress-data-layer/\">Using the WordPress Data Layer</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/course/a-developers-guide-to-block-themes-part-1/\">A Developer&#8217;s Guide to Block Themes – Part 1</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/course/a-developers-guide-to-block-themes-part-2/\">A Developers Guide to Block Themes – Part 2</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/course/develop-your-first-low-code-block-theme/\">Develop Your First Low-Code Block Theme</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/course/converting-a-shortcode-to-a-block/\">Converting a Shortcode to a Block</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/course/developing-with-the-wordpress-rest-api/\">Introduction to developing with the WordPress REST API</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-light-background-background-color has-background\"><strong>Josepha Haden Chomphosy</strong> and <strong>Wes Theron</strong> chatted about the Learning Pathways releases on the latest episode of the WP Briefing podcast: <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/news/2024/07/episode-83-learning-pathways/\"><strong>Episode 83: Learning Pathways</strong></a></p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"upcoming-events\">Upcoming events</h3>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>July 23, 2024 15:00 UTC</strong> <strong>/ 9 am EDT</strong> <a href=\"https://www.meetup.com/learn-wordpress-online-workshops/events/301860423/\"><strong>Developer Hours: Do you really need a custom block? Let’s explore alternatives</strong></a>. JuanMa Garrido and Nick Diego  will explore several scenarios often addressed with custom blocks and discuss alternative approaches, especially those that leverage block patterns and Editor extensions. Key highlights include:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>How to create overrides in synced patterns</li>\n\n\n\n<li>How to add new functionality to core blocks</li>\n\n\n\n<li>How to use content-only editing and the allowedBlocks attribute in patterns</li>\n\n\n\n<li>How to integrate block bindings and block variations</li>\n\n\n\n<li>How to effectively use block locking and naming</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>July 24, 2024 18:00 UTC / 2 pm EDT </strong><a href=\"https://www.meetup.com/learn-wordpress-online-workshops/events/301927241/\"><strong>What’s new in WordPress 6.6?</strong></a> with<strong> Bud Kraus</strong> and <strong>Laura Adamonis.</strong> You will see demonstration of the main features of this new version: Here are the main features that will be demonstrated during this prevention: Synced Pattern overrides, the Grid Block, an improved way to layout pages and negative margins. All part of the new and improved user experiences in the site editor and more.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>July 19, 2024, </strong><a href=\"https://stellarwp.com/stellar-spark/spark-schedule/\"><strong>Stellar Spark Conference</strong></a>, a free online WordPress event! The lineup of speaker promises interesting, inclusive and innovative talks. It starts at 9 am EDT with a keynote with <strong>Josepha Haden Chomphosy</strong>. Among others, you can listen to Tammie Lister, Bet Hannon, Bud Kraus, David Wolfpas and Lindsey Miller.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>July 30, 2024 </strong><a href=\"https://wordsesh.com/\"><strong>WordSesh</strong></a><strong> </strong>produced by <strong>Brian Richards</strong>&nbsp;is back. It&#8217;s a free online event with eight sessions across three live broadcasts in three time zones. Speakers announced so far include Alex Thomas (Defiant), Daniel Bachhuber (Automattic), Kimberly Lipari (Valet), and Piccia Neri (UX and accessible design lead)</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><em>Save the date:  </em><br /><strong>August 27, 2024 15:00 UTC /9 am EDT:</strong> <strong>Developer Hours: Building themes with the Create Block Theme plugin</strong> with <strong>Tammie Lister</strong>. In this session, you will explore how this plugin enhances WordPress theme development. You also learn to create custom themes, utilize the speed boost, define different types of themes, and streamline your theme creation process all the way to exporting the theme.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"0-p\">Plugins, Themes, and Tools for #nocode site builders and owners</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jamie Marsland</strong> published the recording of his talk at WordCamp Europe on YouTube: <a href=\"https://www.pootlepress.com/2024/07/master-wordpress-block-themes-3-essential-principles-for-beginners/\"><strong>Master WordPress Block Themes: 3 Essential Principles for Beginners</strong></a>. He shows you how Blocks, Templates, and Styles&nbsp;can transform your website design with their simplicity and flexibility.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://x.com/nithin_sreeraj\"><strong>Nithin Sreeraj</strong></a> at WP Content, takes you along <a href=\"https://wp-content.co/wordpress-6-6/\"><strong>WordPress 6.6 and its expected new features and changes</strong></a> and explains in short paragraphs why those features and changes are important for you and your customers.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Mike McAlister</strong> announced the update of <a href=\"https://olliewp.com/the-ollie-pro-pattern-browser-just-got-a-huge-boost/\"><strong>the Ollie Pro pattern browser just got a huge boost</strong></a>. To help you quickly browse the massive pattern collection, served from a cloud app, the updated increases load performance for these patterns seamless into the WordPress block editor. McAlister shared some technical details of the refactoring.</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>This announcement comes days after the <a href=\"https://olliewp.com/introducing-ollie-pro/\">public roll-out of Ollie Pro</a>, </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Rae Morey</strong> at <a href=\"https://www.therepository.email/?mailpoet_router&endpoint=view_in_browser&action=view&data=WzI1OSwiNGMzNDVlMjk4MWQ3IiwwLDAsMCwxXQ\">The Repository covered it comprehensively</a>. </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Jamie Marsland</strong> will interview <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/live/0-aHhfbk8Ac\">Mike McAlister on Monday on his live stream</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>One of the newest Block theme in the WordPress Repository is <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/themes/mymenu/\"><strong>My Menu</strong></a> by Automattic. It &#8220;is a simple theme designed to facilitate restaurant owners’ site-building experiences. It is clean, direct, and customizable. Test the cool style variations that have been added to the theme.&#8221; </p>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://wordpress.org/themes/mymenu/preview/?style_variation=maroon\"><img width=\"652\" height=\"489\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/MyMenu-Screen.jpg?resize=652%2C489&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-29337\" /></a><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/themes/mymenu/preview/?style_variation=maroon\">My Menu &#8211; style variation &#8220;Maroon&#8221; </a>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled\">Theme Development for Full Site Editing and Blocks</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jessica Lyschik</strong> asked contributors and users on <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/08/what-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-next-default-wordpress-theme/\"><strong>What would you like to see in the next default WordPress theme?</strong></a>&nbsp; The next theme will be Twenty-Twenty-Five and is part of the next major WordPress version, to come out in mid-November. To be more specific, she asked:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>What types of sites do you want to create with the theme?</li>\n\n\n\n<li>What problems do you need the theme to solve to be able to create these sites?</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Is there an existing feature that you want the theme to support? </li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>In his latest post, <strong>Brian Coords</strong> asked <a href=\"https://www.briancoords.com/will-wordpress-6-6-have-components/\"><strong>Will WordPress 6.6 have components?</strong></a> After outlining his expectations on flexibility, Coords reflects on how Section Styles and Sync Pattern overrides fit into the ideas of a design system. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>The summary of this week&#8217;s Hallway Hangout is now available on the Make Core Blog: <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/12/summary-hallway-hangout-section-styles/\"><strong>Recap Hallway Hangout: Section styles and other block style variation updates</strong></a> &#8220;Attendees chatted about cool new features and handy tips for styling sections in WordPress 6.6. They also swapped stories and ideas on how to handle theme styles with section styles. The group shared their experiences and brainstormed ways to make pattern management and theme building in&nbsp;Gutenberg&nbsp;better.&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>&nbsp;<a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">&#8220;Keeping up with Gutenberg &#8211; Index 2024&#8221;</a>&nbsp;</strong><br />A chronological list of the WordPress Make Blog posts from various teams involved in Gutenberg development: Design, Theme Review Team, Core Editor, Core JS, Core CSS, Test, and Meta team from Jan. 2024 on. Updated by yours truly. The previous years are also available: <strong><strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2020/\">2020</a>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2021/\">2021</a></strong>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2022/\">2022</a></strong></strong>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/gutenberg-index-2023\">2023</a></strong></p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press\">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor. </h2>\n\n\n\n<p>In this week&#8217;s <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmDozCmu1l0\"><strong>Developer Hours: Editor unification and extensibility in WordPress 6.6, </strong></a><strong>Ryan Welcher</strong> and <strong>Nick Diego</strong> discussed how the more unified slots and extensibility APIs are unified in the @wordpress/editor package global variable, simplifying the integration of extensions across editors for developers. The user interface is also becoming more standardized.</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"toolbelt-video-wrapper\"></div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"wordpress-playground\">WordPress Playground</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Alex Kirk </strong>has created a <a href=\"https://akirk.github.io/playground-step-library/\">WordPress Playground Step Library</a>. To learn more about the thoughts behind it and how to use it, he also wrote a blog post about how to <a href=\"https://alex.kirk.at/2024/07/11/wordpress-playground-step-library/\"><strong>Build a Playground Blueprint with a Drag and Drop UI</strong></a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://alex.kirk.at/2024/07/11/wordpress-playground-step-library/\"><img width=\"652\" height=\"356\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/wordpress-playground-step-library-1-1024x559-1.png?resize=652%2C356&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-29306\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/need-a-zip-from-master/\">Need a plugin .zip from Gutenberg&#8217;s master branch?</a></strong><br />Gutenberg Times provides daily build for testing and review. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now also available via <a href=\"https://playground.wordpress.net/?blueprint-url=https://gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/playnightly.json\">WordPress Playground</a>. There is no need for a test site locally or on a server. Have you been using it? <a href=\"mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com\">Email me </a>with your experience</p>\n\n\n\n<p><img alt=\"GitHub all releases\" src=\"https://img.shields.io/github/downloads/bph/gutenberg/total?style=for-the-badge\" /></p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center has-small-font-size\"><em>Questions? Suggestions? Ideas? </em><br /><em>Don&#8217;t hesitate to send <a href=\"mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com\">them via email</a> or</em><br /><em> send me a message on WordPress Slack or Twitter @bph</em>.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" />\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center has-small-font-size\">For questions to be answered on the <a href=\"http://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast\">Gutenberg Changelog</a>, <br />send them to <a href=\"mailto:changelog@gutenbergtimes.com\">changelog@gutenbergtimes.com</a></p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n<div width=\"100%\" class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-showhide ng-block\">\n<p>Featured Image: Reflections Munich Marstall photo by Birgit Pauli-Haack</p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-left\"><strong>Don&#8217;t want to miss the next Weekend Edition? </strong></p>\n\n\n<form class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-form ngl-form ngl-portrait\" action=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/feed/\" method=\"post\"><div class=\"ngl-form-container\"><div class=\"ngl-form-field\"><label class=\"ngl-form-label\" for=\"ngl_email\"><br />Type in your Email address to subscribe.</label><div class=\"ngl-form-input\"><input type=\"email\" class=\"ngl-form-input-text\" name=\"ngl_email\" id=\"ngl_email\" /></div></div><button type=\"submit\" class=\"ngl-form-button\">Subscribe</button><p class=\"ngl-form-text\">We hate spam, too, and won&#8217;t give your email address to anyone <br />except Mailchimp to send out our Weekend Edition</p></div><div class=\"ngl-message-overlay\"><div class=\"ngl-message-svg-wrap\"></div><div class=\"ngl-message-overlay-text\">Thanks for subscribing.</div></div><input type=\"hidden\" name=\"ngl_list_id\" id=\"ngl_list_id\" value=\"26f81bd8ae\" /><input type=\"hidden\" name=\"ngl_double_optin\" id=\"ngl_double_optin\" value=\"yes\" /></form>\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n</div>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sat, 13 Jul 2024 04:09:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:18:\"Birgit Pauli-Haack\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:36;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:46:\"BuddyPress: BuddyPress 14.0.0 « Da Lucia »\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:32:\"https://buddypress.org/?p=334577\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:58:\"https://buddypress.org/2024/07/buddypress-14-0-0-da-lucia/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:10099:\"<p>We’re very excited to announce the immediate availability of <a href=\"https://downloads.wordpress.org/plugin/buddypress.14.0.0.zip\">BuddyPress 14.0.0 « Da Lucia »</a>, named after the excellent pizza restaurant located in the 15th arrondissement of Paris, France. Get it now from the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/buddypress/\">WordPress.org plugin repository</a>, or right from your WordPress Dashboard.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This new major version of your site’s community engine introduces around 80 changes mostly working under the hood to improve documentation, code formatting, consistency and the stability of the plugin. Here are five improvements we would like to highlight:</p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>There’s a new &#8220;BuddyPress constants&#8221; panel added to the WordPress Site Health information tool. Use it to check whether you’re using deprecated constants in your custom code or third party BP Plugins/Add-ons. The information in the &#8220;BuddyPress&#8221; and &#8220;BuddyPress constants&#8221; panels is also very useful when you need to ask for support.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Most BuddyPress Admin screens now have a help tab in their top right corner which includes a link to an updated&nbsp;<a href=\"https://github.com/buddypress/buddypress/tree/master/docs/user/administration#readme\">documentation resource</a>.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Whether BuddyPress is installed on a multisite network or on a single site,&nbsp;<a href=\"https://bpdevel.wordpress.com/2024/04/21/signups-are-becoming-members-only-after-validating-their-accounts/\">signups</a>&nbsp;are now managed the exact same way.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Speaking of signups, the&nbsp;<a href=\"https://bpdevel.wordpress.com/2024/05/07/signup-fields-via-the-rest-api/\">BP REST API</a>&nbsp;has been improved so that you can now submit values for any xProfile field registered as part of the Signups profile field group.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Last but not least, we again offer native support for overriding BuddyPress’s language with your community vocabulary using&nbsp;<a href=\"https://bpdevel.wordpress.com/2024/06/28/translating-buddypress-texts-into-your-community-vocabulary-is-back-in-14-0-0/\">custom translations</a>.</li>\n</ol>\n\n\n\n<p>Take a few minutes to discover all changes reading this <a href=\"https://codex.buddypress.org/releases/version-14-0-0/\">release note</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Compared to our previous major version (12.0.0 &#8211; the number right after was too intimidating&nbsp;<img src=\"https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f408-200d-2b1b.png\" alt=\"🐈‍⬛\" class=\"wp-smiley\" />), 14.0.0 is a quieter update.&nbsp;After the huge BP Rewrites API revolution, the humans (us the BP Team) who maintain and support your favorite community plugin needed to catch their breath to get ready for the new round of big changes arriving in 15.0.0.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Let’s keep in mind BuddyPress is an open source project maintained by volunteers giving freely of their time and energy to help you build great WordPress community sites.&nbsp;Don’t hesitate to <a href=\"https://buddypress.org/support/topic/buddypress-14-0-0/\">send us some encouraging words</a> and please consider contributing back to&nbsp;<a href=\"https://github.com/buddypress/buddypress/tree/master/docs/contributor#readme\">the project</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-spacer\"></div>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">47 contributors freely gave some of their time &amp; energy to build the 14.0.0 release <img src=\"https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f60d.png\" alt=\"😍\" class=\"wp-smiley\" /></h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ahegyes/\">ahegyes</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/boonebgorges/\">Boone Gorges (boonebgorges)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/chairmanbrando/\">chairmanbrando</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dcavins/\">David Cavins (dcavins)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dd32/\">Dion Hulse (dd32)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/djpaul/\">Paul Wong-Gibbs (DJPaul)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dontdream/\">Andrea Tarantini (dontdream)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/emaralive/\">emaralive</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/espellcaste/\">Renato Alves (espellcaste)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/gingerbooch/\">gingerbooch</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/iandunn/\">Ian Dunn (iandunn)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/imath/\">Mathieu Viet (imath)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/itpathsolutions/\">IT Path Solutions (itpathsolutions)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jnie/\">jnie</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/johndawson155/\">johndawson155</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/johnjamesjacoby/\">John James Jacoby (johnjamesjacoby)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/josevarghese/\">Jose Varghese (josevarghese)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kainelabsteam/\">KaineLabs Team (kainelabsteam)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/lenasterg/\">Lena Stergatou (lenasterg)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/needle/\">Christian Wach (needle)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nhrrob/\">Nazmul Hasan Robin (nhrrob)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/niftythree/\">Nifty (niftythree)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nitinp544/\">Nitin Patil (nitinp544)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/pawelhalickiotgs/\">pawelhalickiotgs</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/perchenet/\">perchenet</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/poojasahgal/\">Pooja Sahgal (poojasahgal)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/r-a-y/\">r-a-y</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/respawnsive/\">respawnsive</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/roberthemsing/\">Rosso Digital (roberthemsing)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/sabernhardt/\">Stephen Bernhardt (sabernhardt)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/shailu25/\">Shail Mehta (shailu25)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/shawfactor/\">shawfactor</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/sjregan/\">sjregan</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/slaffik/\">Slava Abakumov (Slaffik)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/strategio/\">Pierre Sylvestre (strategio)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/testovac/\">testovac</a>,<a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/vapvarun/\">Varun Dubey (vapvarun)</a>,<a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/yagniksangani/\">Yagnik Sangani (yagniksangani)</a>,<a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dancaragea/\">Dan Caragea (dancaragea)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/modelaid/\">modelaid</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/nekojonez/\">Pieterjan Deneys (nekojonez)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mehrazmorshed/\">Mehraz Morshed (mehrazmorshed)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/shenyanzhi/\">沈唁 (shenyanzhi)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/haozi/\">耗子 (haozi)</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/cyrfer/\">cyrfer</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/narolainfotech/\">narolainfotech</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/benjamin_zekavica/\">Benjamin Zekavica (benjamin_zekavica)</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-spacer\"></div>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Your feedback</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>How are you using BuddyPress? Receiving your feedback and suggestions for future versions of BuddyPress genuinely motivates and encourages our contributors. Please&nbsp;<a href=\"https://buddypress.org/support/topic/buddypress-14-0-0/\">share your feedback</a>&nbsp;about this version of BuddyPress on our website.</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-spacer\"></div>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Let’s meet at «&nbsp;Da Lucia&#8217;s&nbsp;» !</h2>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://buddypress.org/wp-content/uploads/1/2024/07/IMG_7414.jpg\"><img width=\"1024\" height=\"714\" src=\"https://buddypress.org/wp-content/uploads/1/2024/07/IMG_7414.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-334590\" /></a><a class=\"bp-suggestions-mention\" href=\"https://buddypress.org/members/vapvarun/\" rel=\"nofollow\">@vapvarun</a> &amp; <a class=\"bp-suggestions-mention\" href=\"https://buddypress.org/members/imath/\" rel=\"nofollow\">@imath</a> met at Da Lucia&#8217;s to enjoy 2 delicious &amp; enormous pizzas!\n\n\n\n<p><strong>BuddyPress is about people</strong>! The BuddyPress team is made up of friendly folks from all around the world. We meet online every week during a release cycle but when we manage to meet IRL during a WordCamp, a BuddyCamp or just because we&#8217;re around at the same time we absolutely need to celebrate it with a great <img src=\"https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f355.png\" alt=\"🍕\" class=\"wp-smiley\" />. <a href=\"https://daluciaresturantpizzeria.eatbu.com/?lang=en\">Da Lucia&#8217;s</a> will, from now on, be remembered as the great pizza restaurant where <a class=\"bp-suggestions-mention\" href=\"https://buddypress.org/members/vapvarun/\" rel=\"nofollow\">@vapvarun</a> &amp; <a class=\"bp-suggestions-mention\" href=\"https://buddypress.org/members/imath/\" rel=\"nofollow\">@imath</a>, two members of the BP Team, met IRL for the first time <img src=\"https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f91d.png\" alt=\"🤝\" class=\"wp-smiley\" /> <img src=\"https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f602.png\" alt=\"😂\" class=\"wp-smiley\" />.</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-spacer\"></div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-1 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\"></div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/buddypress/\">BuddyPress</a></blockquote>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\"></div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<p>Props <a href=\"https://buddypress.org/members/dcavins/\">@dcavins</a> for his review about this announcement post.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Fri, 12 Jul 2024 11:49:25 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:12:\"Mathieu Viet\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:37;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:56:\"Do The Woo Community: Connecting Means Opening the Doors\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=84661\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:55:\"https://dothewoo.io/connecting-means-opening-the-doors/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4327:\"Episode Transcript\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p>You know as well as I do that there are people in our community looking for a job. The reasons for this stem from many different situations. For freelancers and small business owners, in reality, they are always looking for a job in another sense. Depending on how things are going, it reflects on their need to find that next client.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, I&#8217;m not leading into some episode where I am going to give you tips on looking for a job or insights on best practices. I&#8217;m really not qualified for that. I have been working for myself since the late 1980s, with a few jobs here and there during those early years of surviving. I probably know as much as many of you do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And again, I could mention all the resources where you might find work. Michelle Freschette generously curates job openings on her X profile every Wednesday. Marcus, one of our hosts, lists those who are looking for work over on thewp.world. Not to mention sites like Post Status and others that list jobs.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The reason I bring this up is that, as I do every day, several times, I visit LinkedIn and typically find a message from someone asking me if I am hiring. Now I get it on both sides. Often, this is unsolicited and can be annoying. On the other hand, there are those that just need work. Their abrupt intrusion, which you may describe as random, often sounds that way. True. But we do have to understand that in some cases it&#8217;s cultural, and in other cases, it&#8217;s just the fact that they have little experience in finding a job in what we may describe as the professional or correct way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, there are a couple of things here. First, they do have to connect or at least ask to connect with you to do this, unless they have a premium account, which likely they won&#8217;t be doing. That first connection may be as abrupt as a short intro asking if you are hiring, or a bit more extended by first asking to connect and then following up with something like, &#8220;Hi Bob, how are you doing?&#8221; which may then lead into the job pitch.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>What do I personally do? I like to connect with people, and most of them are potential listeners to the podcast. So I connect a lot unless the invite to connect includes some kind of weird pitch, be it a job, services they offer, or anything like that. When they immediately come back with the pitch, well, sometimes I ignore it, or other times I reply with a polite reason why I am not interested.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You may think I am crazy and spending way too much time doing that. Well, let me explain a couple of things about me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>First, the ripple effect or the &#8220;you never know&#8221; effect. Each connection, no matter how it starts, can lead to something else. Maybe you think the odds are against it, but it happens. I have experienced that myself. Maybe they do become a listener. Or read one of my posts that inspires them. Or they could tell a friend or colleague about the podcast because of where their interest lies. The thing is, you never know.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Secondly, I have opened the door. I&#8217;m not sure how many of you are old enough to remember door-to-door salespeople. Those ones that you would answer the door for or quickly disappear around the corner into another room hoping they didn&#8217;t see you. But for those times you did open the door, there was the invite. The chance for them to introduce themselves and give their pitch. How that moment evolved varied. But the fact is, you did invite them in. So when you connect with someone on LinkedIn, you are doing the same thing. Sure, it&#8217;s not what you may have expected or wanted, but you opened the door.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So that&#8217;s it. I&#8217;m not suggesting you follow my line of reasoning or even that you have the same goals as me when it comes to a platform like LinkedIn. All I want to do is to remind you that you opened the door.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n\n<p>In today&#8217;s episode BobWP leads into the diverse challenge of so many people in the WordPress ecosystem looking for a job.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Which leads into his take on LinkedIn where so many people are asking for work and how connecting is all about opening doors.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Fri, 12 Jul 2024 10:08:09 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:38;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:63:\"Akismet: Version 5.3.3 of the Akismet WordPress plugin is ready\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"http://akismet.com/?p=284062\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:80:\"https://akismet.com/blog/version-5-3-3-of-the-akismet-wordpress-plugin-is-ready/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:572:\"<p>Version 5.3.3 of <a href=\"http://wordpress.org/plugins/akismet/\">the Akismet plugin for WordPress</a> is now available for&nbsp;download.</p>\n\n<p>There are a number of bug fixes and improvements and we recommend upgrading if you&#8217;re using an earlier version of the&nbsp;plugin.</p>\n\n<p>To upgrade, visit the Updates page of your WordPress dashboard and follow the instructions. If you need to download the plugin zip file directly, links to all versions are available in <a href=\"http://wordpress.org/plugins/akismet/\">the WordPress plugins&nbsp;directory</a>.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 10 Jul 2024 23:38:45 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:17:\"Chris Rosser 🏔\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:39;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:107:\"WPTavern: #127 – Rian Rietveld on Understanding the European Accessibility Act and Its Impact on Websites\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:48:\"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=156969\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:121:\"https://wptavern.com/podcast/127-rian-rietveld-on-understanding-the-european-accessibility-act-and-its-impact-on-websites\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:44407:\"Transcript<div>\n<p>[00:00:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jukebox is a podcast, which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, understanding the European Accessibility Act and it&#8217;s impact on websites.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast. And you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head over to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox and use the form there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So on the podcast today, we have Rian Rietveld. Rian is a web accessibility specialist from the Netherlands. As a freelance accessibility consultant, she works for NL Design Systems, the WordPress agency Level Level, and the form plugin Gravity Forms. She also teaches at the online learning platform, The A11Y Collective. She loves to share her knowledge at WordCamps meetups workshops and accessibility conferences worldwide.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Today, we talk about the accessibility requirements of the European Accessibility Act or EAA, which will be enforced on June the 28, 2025.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This legislation mandates that public service websites, products and services be accessible to all people. Rian clarifies the key aspects of the EAA, particularly focusing on websites, but we also touch upon other areas such as apps and PDFs.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>She emphasizes the importance of ensuring accessibility, not only because of the legal requirements, but also due to the moral obligation to include individuals with disabilities who access the web using a variety of different mechanisms, such as screen readers and keyboards.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We discuss practical ways to achieve web accessibility. For example, using default accessible themes in vanilla WordPress, and writing accessible content.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Rian also highlights the need for constant monitoring and training within teams to maintain accessibility standards, especially focusing on keyboard accessibility and color contrast.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Financial incentives for making websites accessible are another point we talk about, as accessible websites can lead to increased revenue by catering to a broader audience, including the 20% of the population that relies on accessible websites.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Additionally Rian points out that an accessible website can significantly impact SEO and customer engagement.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Towards the end of the podcast we talk about the importance of having an accessibility statement for websites in Europe, the differences in the requirements between the EU and other parts of the world, and the benefits of hiring a professional to conduct an accessibility audit.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>She also addresses exemptions for small companies, but notes the overall benefit of compliance for reaching more customers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re interested in the implications of the European Accessibility Act, and how to make your website more inclusive, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;d like to find out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so without further delay, I bring you Rian Rietveld.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I am joined on the podcast by Rian Rietveld. Hello, nice to meet you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:03] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Thank you. for having me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:05] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You&#8217;re very welcome. So we are at WordCamp Europe 2024. We are in the city of Torino. This is my first interview, so it&#8217;s an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast. We&#8217;re going to talk a little bit about a topic which Rian is mentioning at this conference. Do you want to just tell us a little bit about who you are before we get stuck into accessibility?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:24] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> My name is Rian Rietveld, and I&#8217;m from the Netherlands. I&#8217;m an accessibility expert. At the moment I&#8217;m freelance, and I&#8217;m working on various projects. One is the NL Design System that&#8217;s for the Dutch government, where I write documentation and guidelines for government websites, how to create accessible forms. And I also work for the WordPress agency Level Level, and for Gravity Forms, the WordPress forms plugin. And I give in-house trainings to companies.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:53] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> This is a topic which is probably, well, we&#8217;ll get into it, but there&#8217;s probably a whole load of legal stuff that we&#8217;ll end up talking about. And I just want to clear up at the beginning, do you have a background as a lawyer, or anything like that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:04] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> No, I am not a lawyer, and I want to emphasise that everything I say is from the accessibility point of view, and not from the legal point of view. If you have questions really about a legal implications for your company, hire an expert in legislation for accessibility.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:20] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, so I guess good to get out the way right at the beginning. Nevertheless, you&#8217;ve got a lot of expertise in this area. Your talk is called the European Accessibility Act. I would imagine we&#8217;ll probably call that EAA from this point. Well, I don&#8217;t know which is quicker, to be honest.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the EAA, the European Accessibility Act is a piece of legislation, which I think is coming around in the year 2025. It seems like it&#8217;s a very big and important piece of legislation for people working with websites. Do you just want to tell us a little bit about what it is? Just what it is to begin with, and then we&#8217;ll get into who it affects, and how it affects people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:55] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> In 2016, the EU member states agreed to make public service websites accessible. For example, government websites. And in 2019, they agreed on the directive to make also products and services accessible. And each member state has to implement that directive into their own legislation.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In 2022, each member state must already have that put in their law. So actually, that legislation should already be implemented with the member states. The Dutch government only did that two months ago. Some countries didn&#8217;t even do that yet. Other countries have that really nicely in order. So it depends a bit on the member state, but they all agreed that it will be enforced in 2025. June 28th, 2025. So it&#8217;s in one year, and then it will be enforced.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And what they agree on, that all services and products need to be accessible. And that&#8217;s a whole bunch of products like computers, operating systems, ATMs, ticket machines. And for services, it&#8217;s websites, e-commerce, the 111 emergency number. It&#8217;s a list of products and services that need to be accessible for people with a disability.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:14] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So it&#8217;s not bound, this legislation is very much not bound just to websites, although that&#8217;s obviously our area of expertise. It&#8217;s any sort of interface, so an ATM is a perfect example. You know, you want to go and get money out of the machine, and obviously if you have an issue which prevents you doing that in the, and I&#8217;m putting air quotes, the normal way, that machine needs to be, by 2025, June 2025, that machine has to be accessible. And we can explore what that might mean for an ATM, as well as a website in a moment. But that&#8217;s the moment. That&#8217;s the day it&#8217;s got to be done?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:44] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> It should already be a law in the countries, but then it will be enforced. So that&#8217;s the deadline.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:49] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, so the expectation is that people are working towards this, and it&#8217;s not like you start thinking about it in June 2025. Yeah, it needs to be done. That work needs to be finished, because at that point the enforcement can happen. And we can get on to the enforcement, actually, let&#8217;s sort of pivot to that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So we&#8217;re in Italy at the moment, which is a member of the EU. I come from the UK, which made a decision several years ago to leave the EU. And I imagine there&#8217;ll be a bunch of people listening to this, I don&#8217;t know, in Australia, in New Zealand, in India, in America, does it affect them in any way?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re an ATM manufacturer, I guess you might be shipping ATM machines to Italy. But certainly with a website, if I have a website which is based in the US, well, there&#8217;s nothing preventing me, as a user in the EU, from accessing that website. So where do the boundaries lie? What is the jurisdiction? Is there a boundary? Does it neatly encapsulate the EU, or do we need to worry wherever we are?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:49] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Well, that&#8217;s the web. The web is worldwide. So if you sell services or products to an EU member state, then your website or product needs to be accessible.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:59] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You specifically said if you sell, so you used the word sell there. What if you have a website which is, oh I don&#8217;t know, let&#8217;s just say you have a blog, for example, or you have a brochure website, which is nothing to do with selling a thing. It&#8217;s just a hobby of some kind. Let&#8217;s call it that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:16] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Of course, but you don&#8217;t have to. If you sell items, services, or products, then you need to be accessible.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:22] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So it&#8217;s bound up with the transaction of money. If money is moving from one point to another point, and any of that touches the EU, then you need to be compliant by June 2025.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:34] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:35] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> What I&#8217;m taking from that then is that, if you are an international company, and you are selling anything into the EU, you can&#8217;t ignore this, even though you are in a country where the jurisdiction, if you like, you might think it doesn&#8217;t affect you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>How could that jurisdiction possibly affect you though? So for example, let&#8217;s say that I am an American company, and I&#8217;m selling things, and Europeans are buying them. What possible thing could the EU do to an American citizen? Is there some relationship in law that you know of? And again, I&#8217;ll just emphasise that I know you&#8217;re not a lawyer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:07] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Well, that&#8217;s the big question, nobody knows yet.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:09] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Interesting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:10] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> And what will happen, will it be a sue culture like in the US. Or will it be someone complaining, and take it to a local court? I have no idea. That&#8217;s kind of a tin of worms, because each country implements the legislation on a bit different way. For example, Germany has a very strict legislation. Maybe other people only stick to what is needed. It&#8217;s a tin of worms. And how it&#8217;ll be implemented, and how it&#8217;ll be enforced, we just have to see what happens.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:38] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I guess it will be interesting. Do you know though if people are lining up? How can I describe this without sounding controversial. In certain parts of the world, there&#8217;s this phrase which I hear from time to time and it&#8217;s ambulance chasing lawyers. And it&#8217;s the idea that lawyers find things where there&#8217;s a problem, and they go after them, maybe not for ethical reasons, or moral reasons, or whatever it may be, but it&#8217;s just because there&#8217;s a pot of money that they could get. Do you have any intuition as to whether lawyers in the EU are kind of ramping up their posture in terms of the EAA.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:11] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> That&#8217;s not a culture in Europe at all, because for government website you need at the moment have an accessibility statement where you say, I&#8217;m aiming for, for example, the web content accessibility guidelines, version 2.1, level AA. This is what still needs to be done. This is the roadmap, and this is where you can file an issue. That&#8217;s an accessibility statement. And you already put what&#8217;s wrong on your website. And that will be hard to do in the US, because that gives a lawyer like a checklist.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But if you have a good support system in place. First, someone needs to complain, and you need to respond on that and say, okay, I&#8217;m going to fix that. But if you ignore complaints and just say, oh, there&#8217;s disabled people, I&#8217;m not interested in that. That will trigger a lawsuit I think.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But in Europe, you have to have an accessibility statement explaining what still needs to be done. And that&#8217;s a big issue I think for US companies, because they legally cannot do that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:12:13] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So does that statement need to be published online, or it be a document that you just have in a file, in a drawer gathering dust?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:12:21] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> It has to be on your website, an accessibility statement. Yeah, it gives information about, what are you doing? What are you aiming for? What are you working on? And also, how people can report an issue. And that&#8217;s important if you are a client and you cannot use someone&#8217;s website, and you have the courtesy to actually tell that, okay, I cannot use your website because I have this, and this issue. You have to take these people seriously.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:12:43] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So if you have to put that online, presumably it&#8217;s possible to go and find guidance about websites, in order to start ticking off those boxes, to be able to say, yeah, we have done that one, and we have done that one, but we have yet to begin this process. Those kind of documents are available, easy to access. Do you have a URL which you can just pop out of your head to do with that, where you would go and find those kind of things?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:13:07] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> If you have a website, you let an accessible expert or firm do an audit. And in the audit you state what is wrong, right, and what is wrong. And that is a document you can link to. Is that what you mean?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:13:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I think so. So you are advocating that, if you are not entirely sure, in other words, it sounds like, if you don&#8217;t have a legal team who are up on this, and understand all of this, you are saying hire a professional.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:13:31] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Yes, please. Well, you have to do an audit by a professional. And a professional has to do an audit on your website, as a basement measurement, and you work from there. You fix the issues from there. And maybe if all the issues are fixed, you can redo the audit, and publish that on your website. But it gives you a state of the accessibility of your website at that moment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:13:52] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So I&#8217;m imagining a, almost like a tick sheet with, there&#8217;s this, and this, and this, and I&#8217;ve to tick that, but I haven&#8217;t ticked that. Are there certain things on that tick sheet, things that you need to do in a certain order? And again, obviously you know the caveat about you not being a lawyer, and what have you. But, are there certain things that are more important? Can you get away with just ticking one box? Do the very tiniest amount, and still say, well, look we&#8217;ve made a start, it&#8217;s fine.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:18] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> No, you have to say, I&#8217;m aiming for WCAG, it&#8217;s a web content and accessibility guidelines, version 2.1 AA, or 2.2 AA. And then you have to meet a couple of success criteria. Your images have alternative text, your videos have captioning. You have to meet all those to comply to WCAG, and to comply to the European Accessibility Act requirements.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So if you fail some, you need to fix those to comply completely. There are not many websites that comply a hundred percent. There&#8217;s always something missing. So it&#8217;s utopia to say, oh, my website is perfectly accessible. Website is a work in progress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:58] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So, given that businesses can be one person, or they could be 50,000 people. Does any of that factor in? So if I am an individual employee, I am selling something, so I know that I have to take this seriously. Does the size of the business in any way affect how much I have to do by a certain date?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Because I can imagine a company of the size of, oh I don&#8217;t know, let&#8217;s say Amazon, or Google, or something along those lines, where they&#8217;ve got gigantic resources, and they can really fairly, straightforwardly put teams of people onto this project. I&#8217;m kind of imagining, in a fair and just world, there would be an expectation that they do more than the one person business, who just started up recently, and has got a million other things to do to keep their business going. Is there any sense of that, or is it, no, it&#8217;s a absolute flat level playing field, we all have to do the same?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:15:49] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Thankfully, there&#8217;s an exception for small companies. If you have less than 10 employees, and you have a revenue less than 2 million euros, you don&#8217;t need to comply. You can, of course, because it&#8217;s very good for your revenue, but you don&#8217;t need to comply to that rules.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:05] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I hadn&#8217;t written this question down, but that was an interesting thing that you just said. You just said that it will help your revenue, or it&#8217;s good for your revenue. And I&#8217;ve heard this being talked about before, that the people out there online, who require an accessible website, that the money in their pockets, the size of that cohort of peoples, the finances that they&#8217;ve got available is pretty large. And so if you do this work, even if you don&#8217;t need to, it could be very, very economically good for your business. So I&#8217;m just going to throw that back. Do you have anything to say about that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:37] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Oh, I totally agree. And the population is getting older and older, so more and more people need an accessible website. Good color contrast, a logical order of the information. I think, if you build for everyone, then you just have more customers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>About 20% of all people need some kind of accessibility. So if you just throw away 20% of your people, of your customers, that&#8217;s a large amount of number. And those are what you said, people who have money and want to buy something from you, and you just block the door for them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:10] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, that&#8217;s interesting. So, I think we&#8217;re all carrying around a mobile phone. We&#8217;ve all got this device in our pockets, which enables us to buy anything at any moment. And if you are closing the door, it&#8217;s literally like having a shop with a front door, but you&#8217;ve locked the door, and closed the windows, and pulled the curtains, and nobody can peer inside.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:28] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> What I found interesting is that there is a lot of money in SEO. You want all those people coming to your website, and then you say to 20%, okay, you are not allowed. So you throw away 20% of your SEO budget.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:42] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Really interesting. So 20% would be the kind of figure that we&#8217;re playing with. So there&#8217;s not only a legal obligation to do it, and we can talk about whether there&#8217;s a moral obligation in a moment. But there is definitely a financial incentive to doing this. And that, I think, is a piece of the conversation which doesn&#8217;t often get raised. And if, by doing a series of tasks, and it may be hard, and it may be arduous, but if you get these tasks complete, you may see an uptick in your revenue. So that&#8217;s kind of interesting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:08] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Yeah, it is part of your quality. You want to make your website responsive, secure, and good performance. That are all things that make a good website. Also add accessibility. It&#8217;s part of the quality of your work.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:20] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Is there a reason this kind of legislation hasn&#8217;t happened many years ago? Is it that the people who are now having an expectation that they can get online, did they just not have a voice until more recently? Because I can imagine that, if you require an accessible version of the internet, in the past years, you just wouldn&#8217;t have used the internet.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so you didn&#8217;t have a way to say, well, okay, this bit doesn&#8217;t work, this bit doesn&#8217;t work, because the whole thing was just broken. So you never got to see inside, you never got to peel back the curtain, and see what amazing things there are in the internet. So it&#8217;s kind of curious to me how we&#8217;ve got to 2025, and we&#8217;re still talking about this subject. We could have tackled it a decade or more ago, probably.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:03] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Well, it&#8217;s so hard to even get the government accessible. That took years, and years, and years. And now, even in the Netherlands, about 3% of the website for the government is totally accessible. The rest has still issues. It&#8217;s hard work because it needs training, it needs awareness, it needs people who decide about the finances to give the resources for training and for development. It&#8217;s a question of awareness, and that&#8217;s getting now better and better.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:30] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I guess if you are, so I&#8217;ll take the example of a wheelchair user. If you are standing on the street, and you see somebody using a wheelchair, and they want to get into a physical shop, and there are some steps, and nothing but steps, you see the problem. It&#8217;s right there in front of your eyes. This person cannot get into that shop. That&#8217;s a disaster. So we built the ramps. But this is kind of hidden.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:53] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Yes. When you are young and everything works, your body, you just test a website with a mouse and your eyes, and you say, okay, it works. And you have no idea that someone who gets the website read out loud, has no clue about what&#8217;s happening, or uses the website with a keyboard, cannot open the menu, for example. It works for the mouse, it works for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Only recently in the Netherlands, accessibility is taught on the schools for developers and designers. That&#8217;s only now starting. So everybody has to teach themselves who is a developer at the moment, or gets training, or maybe companies train their people. It&#8217;s only starting at the moment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:20:32] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So we had decision makers who didn&#8217;t make these decisions, plus we had people coming into the industry who just didn&#8217;t know. But now we&#8217;re at the beginning of that journey. This is part of the education, so hopefully, yeah okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:20:44] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Yes, education is the key, I think. We need to educate developers, designers, and also managers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:20:49] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So with the best will in the world, even if 50% of the people, 60%, 70%, 80%, whatever it may be, of the people listen to this podcast, and they say, yep, I&#8217;m going todo all the right things. There&#8217;s definitely going to be a proportion of people who say, leave it till tomorrow, we&#8217;ll leave it for another year. We&#8217;ll never get caught, we a tiny fish in a big pond of websites.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>What can the EU actually do? And when I wrote the question out, I wrote, what stick can the EU use? We have this carrot and stick approach in the English language, where you hit something with a stick to get it to behave, or you offer it a carrot, a treat if you like, to get it to behave. So, is there any of that? Is there any stick that the EU can bring to bear? And also, are there any carrots?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:21:30] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Well, that&#8217;s the big question. I cannot look in the future. So, what will happen in 2025? Everyone in the accessibility world is looking at, so what will happen? We don&#8217;t know. Will there be a strict legislation? Will nothing happen, like with the GDPR? Oh, panic, and then nothing happens. Or will we actually be enforced, and will there be fines for companies? I don&#8217;t know.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I hope this will be a game changer, because there&#8217;s a lot of publicity on this. And there&#8217;s no easy, quick fix. Like the GDPR, you put a cookie banner, and you&#8217;re done. Rework your website, you need to rebuild your website, look at your work. And that&#8217;s a lot more work than just adding a cookie banner. And if there will be implications, I hope so.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:22:11] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you know if on the books, in theory, there&#8217;s a stick? Is there anything, and again, I know you are not a lawyer, but do you know if there&#8217;s anything in the legislation which could be used? Whether or not it will be used aggressively or, you know, more of a soft touch.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:22:26] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Well, it depends on the member states. Each member state can decide, in their own legislation, what the fine will be, what the stick will be. So, not every country has decided on what to do yet. Some countries have, and some other countries none. Ireland, the law in Ireland that went viral in the accessibility world, you can go to jail. Yes, you can get fined and go to jail. Other countries may have no implications at all. If you can go to jail in Ireland, it may be not really happening, but it&#8217;s in the legislation.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:22:56] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;d be curious to see, in the same way that financial laws, you know, if you can move your business to a country where there&#8217;s very little tax, we know what happens. The countries, there&#8217;s lots of companies, they suddenly set up an office there, and they become, I wonder if the same thing would happen. All the companies move away from Ireland from the risk of going to prison, or something like that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Okay, tell me about this then. So we know that you have until June 2025 to get this work done. Tell us about the more sort of moral aspect. And what I&#8217;m talking about there is, it&#8217;s going to be difficult to do this because we&#8217;re an audio podcast, and really it would be nice to sort of see some of this stuff on a screen, but we&#8217;ll just have to use words to describe it. Is there a kind of, a moral aspect to this? Can you describe what it may, in some limited circumstance, look like, or feel like, or sound like for people on the web?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I know that&#8217;s really hard to encapsulate. But if we took the example of somebody who is completely blind. So that&#8217;s something I think we can all understand. You know, if you&#8217;ve got perfect sight, you can close your eyes, and you can hold a mouse in your hand, and you can then try to imagine what the internet would be like. And already, just in my own mind, I&#8217;m picturing it&#8217;s a complete black box. I can&#8217;t see it anymore. What are the ways that people are accessing the web without normal, air quotes, mouse, keyboard, eyes, ears, format?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:24:16] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> There&#8217;s so many different ways. Some people are deaf and blind, so they depend on a braille display. They get all the text in pins, braille letters. Some people use the keyboard only, and that actually is a requirement. You should be able to use a website with a keyboard only. And some people use a stick in their mouth, if they cannot use their hands. And they can access keyboard, or display by that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Some people have a straw in their mouth, and they can use the straw to blow in that, and puff it&#8217;s called. And that, way it&#8217;s a zero and one, so that way you can use the website also. Stephen Hawkin, he used electronic device on his chin. He used a device on his cheek, where he can, just by moving one muscle, operate his voice control. There are people who speak to the computer without any hands. So many different ways. And it only works if you code your website properly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:25:12] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Right, that&#8217;s the key point. All of that bit that you just said, if you just listen to that, you would think, oh, well it&#8217;s fine then, people can put a stick in their mouth, and they can use that, or they can blow, or they can have something attached to their face, or they can speak.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But of course that&#8217;s not it. It&#8217;s that, if the website isn&#8217;t built to enable those kind of technologies, you are faced with something border lining on, just massively infuriating to use, impossible to use. So it&#8217;s not like, oh, I&#8217;ve got this assistive technology, suddenly everything is perfect. You have to rebuild the website so that the assistive technology can get through the website, and you&#8217;ve got clear markers, and it&#8217;s all built correctly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:25:52] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Actually, the web by itself, HTML, what the website is made of, is accessible. All the extra stuff they put into it, making it work only with the mouse, all the extra effects, that makes it inaccessible. So learn HTML properly. If you can use HTML well, you already have a lot of accessibility for free.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:13] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So again, this is a question that I didn&#8217;t have written down, but it&#8217;d be interesting to explore. If you were just using pure and exact HTML, everything would work. But we&#8217;re at a conference where we&#8217;re using a CMS, and I just have the question, how does WordPress do with any of this? Is it out of the box?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, okay, I&#8217;m not imagining that we&#8217;re throwing a bunch of plugins in. Ignore that, because obviously that would introduce a million and one different ways of making it inaccessible, or accessible. But if we just took vanilla WordPress, and installed directly from wordpress.org, and we were to write posts, and pages, and what have you with that, with just the core blocks, how are we doing?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:54] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> If you use the default teams, 21, 22, that kind of themes, those are all accessible. If you use those with vanilla WordPress, you&#8217;re pretty good.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Another thing is the content. You need to write also accessible content. Good heading structure, don&#8217;t call all the links, click here. Add alternative text to your images. If you do that too, you can create an accessible website. It&#8217;s perfectly possible.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:20] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Now the interesting thing there is, it feels like we just had a conversation where, a person without accessibility needs has a WordPress website, and they&#8217;re creating the content for people who have accessibility needs. How does it work the other way around? How does WordPress behave as an editing, content creating experience for people with accessibility needs? I think that&#8217;s going to be a harder question to answer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:44] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> It needs work. I will keep it to that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:46] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, okay. There&#8217;s work to be done.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:47] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> There&#8217;s work to be done. And we have an excellent accessibility team, and they are doing a great job. They need more people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:55] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay. I mean, we&#8217;ve thrown in, in the last five or six years, a very complicated, well, not complicated once you&#8217;ve understood it. It&#8217;s a complicated editing experience. There&#8217;s lots of moving parts and there&#8217;s menus over here, and there&#8217;s options, which if you click in something, other things appear, and what have you, and it&#8217;s all very visual. My interpretation of that is entirely visual. I move my mouse, and it&#8217;s complicated. So there&#8217;s work to be done, the long and the short of it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We didn&#8217;t really touch on this, but I do want to slightly. Is your website ever going to be complete? Even if you are Google, and you have this giant team, where you&#8217;ve got people, you know, a hundred people on this every day, for all of the things that they do. Is this journey ever complete, or is this shifting sand? Is it that the legislation is changing all the time, or there&#8217;s just too many things to do?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And with that, are you allowed to, I know we had this sort of tick box exercise, are there some things that you could recommend to begin with if you&#8217;re on this journey? So let&#8217;s take the first bit. Can you ever say that website over there is complete?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:28:57] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Well, yes you can, but a website is evolving. New content is added, new features are added, and all those need to be checked all the time. If you have a new content manager and they don&#8217;t know about adding alternative texts, it breaks your accessibility.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:29:13] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Oh, good point, yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:29:14] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> So everybody on the team must stay focused and trained. If you have a new content manager, train them in accessibility. If you add content, then the accessibility is vulnerable because it needs to be added accessible.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:29:28] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Sorry, just to interrupt you. That&#8217;s interesting because I&#8217;m imagining a site that, let&#8217;s say I&#8217;ve got a site and it&#8217;s 10 years old, and I&#8217;ve got 10,000 blog posts, and all of them contain, let&#8217;s say video because you mentioned that videos ought to have captions. Do I need to go back and do all of those 10,000 videos?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:29:44] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> That&#8217;s interesting because you can, in your accessibility statement, say, okay, from January 1st 2024, I&#8217;m going to add captioning to all my videos, and then do that also. And before that, if you need content that is added to the video, or if you need captioning on a video, or need the content on an older video, email us and we&#8217;ll provide it to you. So you don&#8217;t have to go through all that content, and go through the videos, and the alternative text. But if someone needs that content, you must be able to provide it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:30:18] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay. So we know that our website really, in the real world, the website&#8217;s never going to be complete if you are, like most people, are tweaking the website, and you&#8217;ve got people creating content, and new pages. So you&#8217;ve got to be constantly mindful.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And also, I think we&#8217;ve learned that you can pick your journey a little bit. You can say, okay, I&#8217;m going to tackle this piece of the jigsaw, and this piece. And treat it as a journey.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:30:41] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> That&#8217;s the roadmap you&#8217;re taking. And first start with keyboard accessibility. That&#8217;s a main feature. If your keyboard accessibility is okay, it works with almost all assistive technology. And then go through color contrast. And that&#8217;s the easiest thing. If your color contrast isn&#8217;t right, it&#8217;s just tweaking your CSS. That&#8217;s a quick fix. Go for the quick fixes, and for the keyboard accessibility. I think that&#8217;s the best way to approach the roadmap.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:31:07] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That&#8217;s a good way to start. Okay, that&#8217;s perfect.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Does this affect anything apart from websites? So I&#8217;m imagining situations where, oh I don&#8217;t know, let&#8217;s say that I&#8217;m sending out email and it&#8217;s nothing to do with my website, it&#8217;s a third party piece of software, or I&#8217;ve got, I don&#8217;t know, a CRM system, where customers can log in and see their orders and things like that. So it&#8217;s outside of the website. Does all of this need to be accessible? So we&#8217;ve been talking about websites, and at the beginning we began with ATMs, so I&#8217;m guessing the answer is yes, if anybody can interact with that thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:31:38] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> If a client can do that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:31:40] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> But there might not be any money changing hands with that thing. So I&#8217;m imagining the website, let&#8217;s say that you&#8217;re a website and you&#8217;re selling things, you&#8217;ve got a company with enough employees, you are based in Europe, and you are selling things. So we know you are definitely, the European Accessibility Act, we know that you are under that. But if you are, I don&#8217;t know, sending out email, and there&#8217;s no transaction in that email, it&#8217;s not anything to do with sales, but your company is selling things, how does that work?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:07] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Well, emails are not really mentioned.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:08] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Interesting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:09] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> It&#8217;s a good way to do it because it&#8217;s communication with your client, and you better make sure your client understands your message. So that&#8217;s good part of your best practice, of your good practice.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> But it&#8217;s not specifically tied into the legislation. In theory, you could avoid it. That&#8217;s kind of fascinating that that never got pulled in.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:25] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> In websites?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:26] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, just websites. That&#8217;s fascinating.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:28] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> And apps, and also electronic documents. If you have PDFs on your website, they need to be accessible too. And that&#8217;s a good reason to get rid of your PDFs.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:36] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, thank you. Would you just tell us a little bit about where we can find you on the internet? Obviously, you are very keen on this subject. I&#8217;m guessing that part of your business might be to do with this as well. So just tell us a little bit about where we can find you, and what kind of things you are doing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:50] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> You can find me on rianrietveld.com. I&#8217;m doing consultancy and I write documentation. I also train people for web accessibility. If you want an online training, you can go to the A11Y Collective, that&#8217;s a11y-collective.com. We have a couple of online trainings in web accessibility there. There is, for the US WebAIM, webaim.org, and that&#8217;s a large website with excellent information about accessibility.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Also on gov.uk, that&#8217;s from the British government, they publish excellent information about accessibility. And if you Google, well, there are many, many companies that provide accessibility consultancy, and also training. Deque is one of them. So there are plenty of them about.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:37] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I will make sure that I dig all of those URLs out, and I will paste them on the WP Tavern page, so you&#8217;ll be able to find them there, along with a complete transcript of this episode.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:47] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> That will be great. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:48] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, you are very welcome. So thank you Rian Rietveld. I appreciate you chatting to me on the podcast today. I hope that you have a good WordCamp EU.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:55] <strong>Rian Rietveld:</strong> Thank you.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<p>On the podcast today we have Rian Rietveld.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Rian is a web accessibility specialist from the Netherlands. As a freelance accessibility consultant she works for NL Design System, the WordPress agency Level Level and the form plugin Gravity Forms. She also teaches at the online learning platform The A11Y Collective. She loves to share her knowledge on WordCamps, meetups, workshops and accessibility conferences worldwide.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Today we talk about the accessibility requirements of the European Accessibility Act or EAA, which will be enforced by June 28th, 2025. This legislation mandates that public service websites, products, and services be accessible to all people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Rian clarifies the key aspects of the EAA, particularly focusing on websites, but we also touch upon other areas such as apps, and PDFs. She emphasises the importance of ensuring accessibility not only because of the legal requirements but also due to the moral obligation to include individuals with disabilities who access the web using a variety of different mechanisms such as screen readers and keyboards.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We discuss practical ways to achieve web accessibility, for example using default accessible themes in vanilla WordPress and writing accessible content. Rian also highlights the need for constant monitoring and training within teams to maintain accessibility standards, especially focusing on keyboard accessibility and colour contrast.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Financial incentives for making websites accessible are another point we talk about, as accessible websites can lead to increased revenue by catering to a broader audience, including the 20% of the population that relies on accessible websites. Additionally, Rian points out that an accessible website can significantly impact SEO and customer engagement.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Towards the end of the podcast, we talk about the importance of having an accessibility statement for websites in Europe, the differences in the requirements between the EU and other parts of the world, and the benefits of hiring a professional to conduct an accessibility audit. She also addresses exemptions for small companies, but notes the overall benefit of compliance for reaching more customers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you’re interested in understanding the implications of the European Accessibility Act and how to make your websites more inclusive, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Useful links</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wordpress.tv/2024/07/03/the-european-accessibility-act-explained/\">The European Accessibility Act explained</a> on WordPress.tv</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.nldesignsystem.nl/\">NL Design System</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://level-level.com/\">Level Level agency</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.gravityforms.com/\">Gravity Forms</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/wcag/\">WCAG guidelines</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://rianrietveld.com/\">Rian&#8217;s website</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.a11y-collective.com/\">The A11Y Collective</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://webaim.org/\">WebAIM</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.gov.uk/guidance/guidance-and-tools-for-digital-accessibility\">Guidance and tools for digital accessibility</a> from gov.uk</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.deque.com/\">Deque</a></p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 10 Jul 2024 14:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14:\"Nathan Wrigley\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:40;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:89:\"Do The Woo Community: Walking the Floor at WCEU Talking Accessibility with Taeke Reijenga\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=84570\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:88:\"https://dothewoo.io/walking-the-floor-at-wceu-talking-accessibility-with-taeke-reijenga/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:25294:\"<div class=\"wp-block-group has-border-color has-light-gray-background-color has-background has-small-font-size has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-56 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p class=\"has-secondary-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-9acf640b7ba38a84a982fc35d618387f\">This show is sponsored by&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-vertical is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-55 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-11 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-52 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-base-background-color has-background wp-container-content-21 has-global-padding is-content-justification-left is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-51 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<img width=\"1224\" height=\"1224\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/dothewoo.io/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Hostinger_Vertical_Purple-e1668465093968.jpg?resize=1224%2C1224&ssl=1\" alt=\"Hostinger\" class=\"wp-image-73505\" />\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-container-content-22\"><strong><a href=\"https://hostinger.com\">Hostinger</a></strong>: As a builder or an agency managing multiple sites, check out <strong>Hostinger</strong>. Whether you are building a WordPress site or specifically, a Woo store, their infrastructure brings your clients sites speed, uptime and security.</p>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-12 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-54 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-base-background-color has-background wp-container-content-23 has-global-padding is-content-justification-left is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-53 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<img width=\"500\" height=\"500\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/dothewoo.io/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Omnisend-square.jpg?resize=500%2C500&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-78802\" />\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-container-content-24\"><strong><a href=\"https://your.omnisend.com/onlywoo_dothewoo\">Omnisend</a></strong>: Whether it&#8217;s for integration into your Woo product, or building sites for clients, <strong>Omnisend</strong> is the solution for email and SMS marketing with their CRM solution for WooCommerce shops and your own website.</p>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\nEpisode Transcript\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p>Taeke:<br />Hey guys and girls, and anything in between. This is Taeke, your host from the accessibility podcast. It&#8217;s just me today. I saw Anne-Mieke running around, which is understandable as she is one of the organizers of WordCamp Europe that we&#8217;re currently attending. We&#8217;re going to freestyle a bit, so I&#8217;ll just walk around and ask some people about accessibility: what it means for them, if it&#8217;s something that is part of their daily practice, if it&#8217;s new to them, anything. So let&#8217;s get started. Hey there, this is, let&#8217;s see, Manuela van Prooijen. How are you doing? Hi.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Manuela:<br />I am fine, thank you. This is quite a spread.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />It&#8217;s been a couple of years.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Manuela:<br />Yes. The last time we met was at Porto WordCamp Europe.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />And that&#8217;s when you decided to move to Portugal.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Manuela:<br />That&#8217;s right. That&#8217;s my home base now.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />Really cool. This is the Do the Woo accessibility podcast. So I wanted to ask you a couple of questions about accessibility. Is there anything that you do in your daily life that involves accessibility?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Manuela:<br />Yeah. Over the past few years, I&#8217;ve developed training programs specifically for virtual assistants to bridge the gap between backend developers and marketing teams to provide a hands-on workforce for bridging accessibility gaps. So I have this program, and it&#8217;s very successful in the Netherlands.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />So you&#8217;re basically training the new generation to help us out?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Manuela:<br />Yes. With the upcoming European Accessibility Act, it&#8217;s very important not just to have auditors or programmers, but people who can provide hands-on workforce.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />Yeah, that&#8217;s amazing. And I totally agree. I mean, I foresee a bit of an issue with this act coming up. At the moment that we are recording, this is one year and 14 days away.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Manuela:<br />Yes, it&#8217;s almost one year away, but it&#8217;s getting closer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />It&#8217;s getting closer. The clock is ticking. Next booth, I see a booth for Equalize Digital, and I know they do something with accessibility. Hi there. Who are you? What do you do at Equalize Digital?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Steve:<br />Hello, I am Steve Jones. I am the CTO at Equalize Digital. We are an accessibility product and services company specializing in accessibility. We have a plugin called the Accessibility Checker that scans your websites for accessibility issues.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />And I heard something, and I see it on your booth. You landed an amazing client not too long ago, or maybe some time ago, but they launched not too long ago.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Steve:<br />They have a lot of things, but the client you&#8217;re speaking of is NASA. Last year, we were brought in as the accessibility team for the NASA project. NASA built a new website on top of WordPress, and we were lucky enough to be brought in to audit the code being developed by the Lone Rock Agency for the NASA website. It was an exciting time, and it actually has extended to just recently. We&#8217;ve still been doing some audits on that and providing accessibility feedback.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />That&#8217;s amazing. Congrats on that. That&#8217;s a cool name to have in your portfolio, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Steve:<br />Absolutely.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />So is it just these big names that you work for? I imagine that the plugin is for anyone to install. Can you tell a little bit more about the plugin, what it does, and why I should install it on my website?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Steve:<br />Yeah, we don&#8217;t just do huge, awesome, interesting clients like NASA, although that is great. The bulk of our clients are medium to large agencies. We do a lot of enterprise website development that is accessible, and like you said, we have our Accessibility Checker plugin. This plugin has a full-featured free version available on WordPress.org. It sits inside your WordPress admin and evaluates your post or page for accessibility issues in real-time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />So this really helps editorial teams in writing their content because they get immediate feedback, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Steve:<br />Yes, it&#8217;s never enough to launch a website and say it&#8217;s accessible and then leave it. Especially WordPress websites. They&#8217;re a living, breathing machine. So accessibility is something that needs to be evaluated with every publish.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />It&#8217;s not just about developers being trained.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Steve:<br />Content creators,</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />Content creators, designers. It&#8217;s a team effort. Is there anything you want to add or share with us? Otherwise, I&#8217;m going to move along and see if there are more sponsors here that do anything with accessibility.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Steve:<br />For any freelancers or agencies or large agencies out there, consider accessibility a priority. Put accessibility first.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />I do have one last question. Why is it so important for you? Is it the law or is there a more ethical motivation? What brought you to accessibility as a niche?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Steve:<br />Well, there is a legal aspect and an ethical aspect to it. Of course, a lot of companies do need to legally comply. The European Accessibility Act will be enacted next year. So there&#8217;s a lot in that respect. But there&#8217;s the ethical side too. At Equalize Digital, we lean more on the ethical side. It’s the right thing to do. Anybody should be able to use the internet. Societies across the world are becoming increasingly digital for basic tasks like getting medical supplies and filling out government paperwork. They shouldn&#8217;t be met with blockers along the way. They should be able to access and submit information as easily as people without any disabilities.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />Yeah, totally agree. And it’s exactly the same philosophy that we live by. It’s more the ethical argument that weighs stronger than any law. It’s about democratizing publishing, making sure that the web is open and can be used by anyone in any situation, whether it’s a temporary or a more permanent one. In the end, we’ll all grow older.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Steve:<br />Yeah, I mean, we’re building an internet for our future selves. We will get older, and we will have degenerative issues, eyesight issues typically. It’s funny that you bring up democratizing publishing because our CEO, Amber Hines, likes to say that we’re trying to democratize accessibility.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />Thanks very much.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Steve:<br />Alright, thank you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />And while I’m approaching the Do the Woo booth at WordCamp Europe, I see another amazing person that I want to ask some questions. We’re going to see an amazing talk by Fel about the European Accessibility Acts that we extensively discussed already. And I just ran into Bet.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bet:<br />Hey.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />Hey, Bet, how are you?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bet:<br />I’m good. How are you?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />I’m good. How are you enjoying WordCamp Europe?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bet:<br />I am enjoying it a lot.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />Yeah. What brought you here?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bet:<br />I get to talk to all kinds of people about accessibility.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />Awesome. Just accessibility?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bet:<br />Well, selling myself, yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />What we’re doing. Well, sell yourself to the audience. Who are you? What do you do?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bet:<br />I’m Ben Hannon. I’m the CEO of AccessiCart. We do web accessibility for e-commerce and other folks too, but primarily e-commerce. We work on WordPress, Shopify, and Magento.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />And what does that mean, &#8220;we work on&#8221;?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bet:<br />We do accessibility consulting and testing for those platforms, and then we can do remediations in WordPress, but not on the others. We tend to partner with agencies, working alongside them to identify issues, prioritize them, help them solve them, and retest and document everything.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />You guide them through the process with the aim of going from one project to the other or training them on the job and letting them go at some point?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bet:<br />Yes, we build up the skills of the developers there. We do some project work, project management for remediation, or consulting for a development project. But our bread and butter is doing accessibility maintenance plans. Accessibility can be affected by any kind of content change. Sometimes even a plugin update can make something inaccessible. So we work with them to monitor and work on the sites continuously. For many, it’s about identifying and solving a few problems every month, step by step.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />And that gets them documentation that shows they’re making incremental progress. It’s about showing they’re taking it seriously, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bet:<br />Exactly. And having those documented reports makes it more affordable for many people to begin thinking about doing it in smaller chunks.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />You’re from the US, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bet:<br />Yes, I’m from Oregon.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />So you deal with the Americans with Disabilities Act mainly?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bet:<br />Yes, but we also have clients who need to comply with EU laws.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />If you look at the European Accessibility Act and compare it to what’s already happening in the US under the ADA, do you see a difference?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bet:<br />Yes, the EU law will have a much bigger impact. The ADA was enacted 40 years ago, before websites, so it wasn’t written for websites. Lawsuits are brought under the ADA, and courts usually say you have to remediate to WCAG 2.1 AA. But the EAA talks about those standards plus regular testing and reporting, which isn’t required in the US unless they have EU customers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So the European Accessibility Act is really an act about accessibility, and it’s up to the European countries to implement it into law. It’s inclusive.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bet:<br />Yes, and in some countries, like Germany, competitors can file a complaint, which really motivates people to get that competitive advantage.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />I hope there’s enforcement and it’s taken seriously. From Europe, we look at the US and see it as the Wild West with the ADA.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bet:<br />Yes, the European Accessibility Act is friendlier but has a bigger impact. It’s about being inclusive.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />With only one year to go, I’m a bit worried that we’re not ready for this.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bet:<br />But there’s more awareness now. Agencies and clients are starting to realize they need to step up.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />It’s a mindset. If we don’t feel it, if we don’t have the empathy to understand what it’s like not to be able to use the web, then…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bet:<br />Exactly. If you’re lucky enough not to die suddenly, you’ll probably need accessibility.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />Yes. Someone mentioned we’re building the accessible web for ourselves. We’ll all grow older and benefit from this. Thanks for the catch-up, Bet. Let’s see if we can get you on the show soon.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bet:<br />That would be great. Thanks a lot.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />My name is Ash Shaw. I’m from Lightspeed WordPress Agency. We did some testing using BrowserStack accessibility tools and PageSpeed Lighthouse. We’ve been fixing issues within our free open-source theme listed on WordPress.org.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />What’s it called?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />NSX Design. None of our software in the past was accessible. After we purchased courses from the A11Y Collective, we skilled up in accessibility. My designer, developers, and I all skilled up.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />That’s amazing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />It made a huge difference to our understanding of accessibility and compatibility. We have clients worldwide, but mainly in South Africa. Now that we have a base that is accessible, we can build accessible sites.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />You’ve just taken the first steps towards full accessibility in your client work?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Yes. We’re using tools like Stark as a browser extension and in Figma. We’re dealing with contrast issues, button sizes, font sizes, etc. Yesterday, I worked with the accessibility table at Contributor Day and got input on our theme issues. Some issues are in Core or WooCommerce or Gravity Forms.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />I know there are issues in WordPress and WooCommerce, but I also know people are taking it seriously. After WordCamp Europe, WooCommerce will work on their plugin and address 50-60 accessibility issues.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Yes, Amber Hinds is leading that. I reported the issues I found, and she’s logging them as GitHub issues.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />Thank you for that contribution.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />It was a fun day. I learned a lot. My developers struggled at first but eventually got it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />It takes time to go from awareness to practice. That’s why it’s important to start working on accessibility now, especially with the European Accessibility Act in mind. It’s only a year away.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Now that we have this knowledge, every project we do will use these tools. We get free access to the BrowserStack accessibility tool, and I’ve recommended it to other users.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />A lot more people will thank you for that suggestion because this is the Do the Woo podcast on accessibility. This will be broadcasted after WordCamp Europe. Thank you for all the tips and your experiences. I’m going to see if I can tackle a few more people and hear their stories about accessibility. Thanks a lot.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Thanks, man. See you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />Hello Ingrid. Can you tell us a little bit about what you’re doing here, what you’re promoting here at the Accessibility Collective booth?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ingrid:<br />We are an e-learning platform with courses for designers, developers, and content writers, mostly marketers, to ensure the web is fully accessible.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />Is there a lot of interest in the booth today?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ingrid:<br />Yes, definitely. From frontend developers, backend developers, and plugin creators. It’s a diverse audience, which is fun to talk to about accessibility.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />Who is the Accessibility Collective aimed at? Is it for a specific discipline?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ingrid:<br />It’s important for all disciplines creating or writing content for the web to ensure full accessibility. It’s a team effort.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />I see a potential candidate for a small interview. Hi Josepha. Can I ask you a couple of questions? This is the Accessibility Podcast from Do the Woo.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Josepha:<br />By some fluke of nature, we also have the current project ambassador from the TYPO3 Project.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />Wow, that’s amazing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Josepha:<br />You can ask us both a question.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />Can you tell me what accessibility, specifically web accessibility, means to you personally or professionally?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Josepha:<br />I think the most important thing about accessibility that people often overlook is that it is a subset of usability. We are all just temporarily fully abled. Just because you feel accessibility doesn’t apply to you now, doesn’t mean it won’t later. It’s something we should all care about because we are a global project trying to make the world a better place, making commerce and access to cool stuff better and easier for more people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />That’s a great opinion. Thank you for that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mathias:<br />My name is Mathias Bolt Lesniak. I am the project ambassador of TYPO3, a friendly cousin CMS to WordPress. We work together in the Open Website Alliance. My elevator pitch about accessibility is this: I once stood in front of an elevator in a hotel and pressed the button. The elevator came with a person inside who asked, “Where am I?” The elevator had braille everywhere, but the key card scanner wasn’t marked in braille. It’s an excellent example of how important accessibility is. You can’t just do it as an afterthought. You have to think through it the whole way. If you skip a step, you lose the visitor.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taeke:<br />You ruin the experience, you lose the visitor. It’s a great example, especially in digital accessibility for e-commerce. The whole store can be accessible, but maybe the marketing team forgot something, and the user experience is ruined. Thanks very much.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mathias:<br />Thank you.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n\n<p>Welcome to this special episode of A<strong>ll Things WordPress and WooCommerce accessibility podcast</strong>, recorded live at WordCamp Europe. In this episode, your host <strong>Taeke</strong> takes you on a journey through the bustling conference, engaging with various experts and enthusiasts in the field of web accessibility.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>First, Taeke catches up with <strong>Manuela van Prooijen</strong>, who has developed a successful training program for virtual assistants in the Netherlands to bridge accessibility gaps between backend developers and marketing teams. Next, he speaks with <strong>Steve Jones</strong>, the CTO at Equalize Digital, who shares insights about their Accessibility Checker plugin and their notable collaboration with NASA. Then, Taeke interviews <strong>Bet Hannon</strong>, CEO of AccessiCart, who discusses their work on web accessibility for e-commerce platforms like WordPress, Shopify, and Magento.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The episode also features a conversation with <strong>Ash Shaw</strong> from Lightspeed WordPress Agency, who shares their journey towards building accessible sites and the tools they use. Additionally, <strong>Ingrid</strong> from the Accessibility Collective talks about their e-learning platform aimed at making the web fully accessible for everyone. Finally, Taeke has an enlightening discussion with <strong>Josepha</strong> from Automattic, and <strong>Mathias Bolt Lesniak</strong>, the project ambassador of TYPO3, who highlight the importance of comprehensive accessibility planning. Join us as we explore these valuable perspectives on creating a more inclusive web.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Hightlights</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Training for Accessibility:</strong> Manuela van Prooijen highlights the importance of training virtual assistants to bridge accessibility gaps between backend developers and marketing teams, emphasizing the need for hands-on workforce in the Netherlands.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Accessibility Tools</strong>: Steve Jones from Equalize Digital discusses their Accessibility Checker plugin, which evaluates website accessibility issues in real-time, and shares their experience working with NASA to ensure the accessibility of their new WordPress website.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ecommerce Accessibility:</strong> Ben Hannon, CEO of AccessiCart, explains their approach to making e-commerce platforms like WordPress, Shopify, and Magento accessible, focusing on consulting, testing, and maintaining accessibility over time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Building Accessible Foundations</strong>: Ash Shaw from Lightspeed WordPress Agency talks about their efforts to build accessible websites from the ground up, using tools like BrowserStack and Figma to address issues like color contrast and font sizes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Team Effort in Accessibility</strong>: Ingrid from the Accessibility Collective emphasizes that creating accessible web content requires collaboration across all disciplines, including designers, developers, and content writers, to ensure a fully inclusive web experience.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Holistic Accessibility Planning</strong>: Mathias Bolt Lesniak, the project ambassador of TYPO3, shares a real-world example illustrating the importance of thorough accessibility planning, stressing that skipping any step in the process can ruin the user experience.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ethical and Legal Motivations</strong>: Several participants, including Steve Jones and Ben Hannon, highlight the dual motivations for accessibility—both ethical (making the web usable for everyone) and legal (complying with laws like the European Accessibility Act and the ADA in the US).</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Future-proofing</strong>: The discussions underscore the importance of building an accessible web not just for current users but also for future generations, as everyone will benefit from accessible design as they age or face temporary or permanent disabilities.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Links</h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://www.a11y-collective.com/\">A11Y Collective</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://accessicart.com/\">AccessiCart</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://equalizedigital.com/\">Equalize Digital</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://lightspeedwp.agency/\">Lightspeed</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://typo3.org/\">TYPO3</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://weblish.nl/\">Weblish</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashshaw/\"><strong>Ash Shaw on LinkedIn</strong></a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/bethannon/\"><strong>Bet Hannon on LinkedIn</strong></a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/ingrid-lentz-coelho-toscano-5080a714/\"><strong>Ingrid Lentz on LinkedIn</strong></a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/josephahaden/overlay/about-this-profile/\"><strong>Josepha Haden Chomphosy on LinkedIn</strong></a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/manuelavanprooijen/overlay/about-this-profile/\"><strong>Manuela van Prooijen on LinkedIn</strong></a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/mathias-bolt-lesniak/overlay/about-this-profile/\"><strong>Mathias Bolt Lesniak on LinkedIn</strong></a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevejonesdev/\"> Steve Jones on LinkedIn</a></strong></li>\n</ul>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 10 Jul 2024 09:02:42 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:41;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:53:\"WordPress.org blog: WordPress 6.6 Release Candidate 3\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:35:\"https://wordpress.org/news/?p=17497\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:69:\"https://wordpress.org/news/2024/07/wordpress-6-6-release-candidate-3/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:9307:\"<p>WordPress 6.6 RC3 is ready for download and testing!</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>This version of the WordPress software is under development</strong>.<strong> Please do not install, run, or test this version of WordPress on production or mission-critical websites.</strong> Instead, please evaluate RC3 on a test server or a local environment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Reaching this phase of the release cycle is a worthy achievement. While release candidates are considered ready for release, your testing is still vital to make sure everything in WordPress 6.6 is the best it can be.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You can test WordPress 6.6 RC3 in four ways:</p>\n\n\n\n<table><tbody><tr><th>Plugin</th><td>Install and activate the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/wordpress-beta-tester/\">WordPress Beta Tester</a> plugin on a WordPress install. (Select the “Bleeding edge” channel and “Beta/RC Only” stream).</td></tr><tr><th>Direct Download</th><td>Download the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/wordpress-6.6-RC3.zip\">RC3 version (zip)</a> and install it on a WordPress website.</td></tr><tr><th>Command Line</th><td>Use the this <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/cli/\">WP-CLI</a> command:<br /><code>wp core update --version=6.6-RC3</code></td></tr><tr><th>WordPress Playground</th><td>Use the <a href=\"https://playground.wordpress.net/#%7B%20%22preferredVersions%22:%20%7B%20%22php%22:%20%228.0%22,%20%22wp%22:%20%22beta%22%20%7D,%20%22features%22:%20%7B%20%22networking%22:%20true%20%7D,%20%22steps%22:%20[%20%7B%20%22step%22:%20%22login%22,%20%22username%22:%20%22admin%22,%20%22password%22:%20%22password%22%20%7D,%20%7B%20%22step%22:%20%22importFile%22,%20%22file%22:%20%7B%20%22resource%22:%20%22url%22,%20%22url%22:%20%22https://raw.githubusercontent.com/wpaccessibility/a11y-theme-unit-test/master/a11y-theme-unit-test-data.xml%22%20%7D%20%7D,%20%7B%20%22step%22:%20%22importFile%22,%20%22file%22:%20%7B%20%22resource%22:%20%22url%22,%20%22url%22:%20%22https://raw.githubusercontent.com/WordPress/theme-test-data/master/themeunittestdata.wordpress.xml%22%20%7D%20%7D,%20%7B%20%22step%22:%20%22installPlugin%22,%20%22pluginZipFile%22:%20%7B%20%22resource%22:%20%22wordpress.org/plugins%22,%20%22slug%22:%20%22query-monitor%22%20%7D,%20%22options%22:%20%7B%20%22activate%22:%20false%20%7D,%20%22progress%22:%20%7B%20%22weight%22:%202%20%7D%20%7D,%20%7B%20%22step%22:%20%22installPlugin%22,%20%22pluginZipFile%22:%20%7B%20%22resource%22:%20%22wordpress.org/plugins%22,%20%22slug%22:%20%22create-block-theme%22%20%7D,%20%22progress%22:%20%7B%20%22weight%22:%202%20%7D%20%7D,%20%7B%20%22step%22:%20%22installPlugin%22,%20%22pluginZipFile%22:%20%7B%20%22resource%22:%20%22wordpress.org/plugins%22,%20%22slug%22:%20%22debug-bar%22%20%7D,%20%22progress%22:%20%7B%20%22weight%22:%202%20%7D%20%7D,%20%7B%20%22step%22:%20%22installPlugin%22,%20%22pluginZipFile%22:%20%7B%20%22resource%22:%20%22wordpress.org/plugins%22,%20%22slug%22:%20%22health-check%22%20%7D,%20%22progress%22:%20%7B%20%22weight%22:%202%20%7D%20%7D,%20%7B%20%22step%22:%20%22installPlugin%22,%20%22pluginZipFile%22:%20%7B%20%22resource%22:%20%22wordpress.org/plugins%22,%20%22slug%22:%20%22test-reports%22%20%7D,%20%22progress%22:%20%7B%20%22weight%22:%202%20%7D%20%7D,%20%7B%20%22step%22:%20%22installPlugin%22,%20%22pluginZipFile%22:%20%7B%20%22resource%22:%20%22wordpress.org/plugins%22,%20%22slug%22:%20%22user-switching%22%20%7D,%20%22progress%22:%20%7B%20%22weight%22:%202%20%7D%20%7D%20]%20%7D\">6.6 RC3 WordPress Playground instance</a> (available within 35 minutes after the release is ready) to test the software directly in your browser without the need for a separate site or setup.</td></tr></tbody></table>Please test WordPress 6.6 RC3 in one or more of these four ways.\n\n\n\n<p>The target for the WordPress 6.6 release is <strong>next Tuesday,</strong> <strong>July 16, 2024</strong>. Get an overview of the <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/6-6/\">6.6 release cycle</a>, and check the <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/\">Make WordPress Core blog</a> for <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/tag/6-6/\">6.6-related posts</a> in the next few weeks for further details.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What&#8217;s in WordPress 6.6 RC3?</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Thanks to your testing (and many other contributors‘ up to now) this release includes eight bug fixes for the Editor and  <a href=\"https://core.trac.wordpress.org/query?status=closed&changetime=06%2F25%2F2024..07%2F01%2F2024&milestone=6.6&col=id&col=milestone&col=owner&col=type&col=priority&order=id\">18 tickets for WordPress Core</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Get a recap of WordPress 6.6’s highlighted features in the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/news/2024/06/wordpress-6-6-beta-1/\">Beta 1 announcement</a>. For more technical information related to issues addressed since RC 2, you can browse the following links:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/commits/wp/6.6?since=2024-07-02&until=2024-07-09\">GitHub commits for 6.6</a> since July 2</li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://core.trac.wordpress.org/query?status=closed&changetime=06%2F25%2F2024..07%2F01%2F2024&milestone=6.6&col=id&col=milestone&col=owner&col=type&col=priority&order=id\">Closed Trac </a><a href=\"https://core.trac.wordpress.org/query?status=closed&changetime=07%2F02%2F2024..07%2F09%2F2024&milestone=6.6&col=id&col=milestone&col=owner&col=type&col=priority&order=id\">tickets</a> since July 2</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>Want to look deeper into the details and technical notes for this release? You might want to make your first stop <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/06/25/wordpress-6-6-field-guide/\">The WordPress 6.6 Field Guide</a>. Then, check out this list:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/06/20/roster-of-design-tools-per-block-wordpress-6-6-edition/\">Roster of design tools per block (WordPress 6.6 edition)</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/tag/dev-notes+6-6/\">All 6.6-related developer notes</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">You can contribute. Here&#8217;s how</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>WordPress is the world’s most popular open source web platform, thanks to a passionate community of people who collaborate on its development in a wide variety of ways. You can help—whether or not you have any technical expertise.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Get involved in testing</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Testing for issues is critical to keeping WordPress speedy, stable, and secure. It’s also a vital way for anyone to contribute. <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/test/2024/06/03/help-test-wordpress-6-6/\">This detailed guide</a> will walk you through testing features in WordPress 6.6. If you&#8217;re new to testing, follow <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/test/2024/06/03/help-test-wordpress-6-6/\">this general testing guide</a> for more details on getting set up.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you encounter an issue, please report it to the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/support/forum/alphabeta/\">Alpha/Beta area</a> of the support forums. If you are comfortable writing a reproducible bug report, you can also report it on <a href=\"https://core.trac.wordpress.org/newticket\">WordPress Trac</a>. Before you do either, you may want to check your issue against a list of <a href=\"https://core.trac.wordpress.org/tickets/major\">known bugs</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Curious about testing releases in general? Follow along with the <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/test/\">testing initiatives in Make Core</a> and join the <a href=\"https://wordpress.slack.com/messages/core-test/\">#core-test channel</a> on <a href=\"https://wordpress.slack.com/\">Making WordPress Slack</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Please update your WordPress product</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>If you build themes, plugins, blocks, or patterns, your efforts play an integral role in adding new functionality to WordPress and helping bring new people and ideas to the most vibrant (and massive!) open source community in the world.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Thanks for continuing to test your products with the WordPress 6.6 betas and release candidates. With RC3, you’ll want to make sure everything is working smoothly, and if it&#8217;s a plugin, update the <em>“Tested up to”</em> version in its <a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/plugins/wordpress-org/how-your-readme-txt-works/\">readme file</a> to 6.6.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you find compatibility issues, please post detailed information to the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/support/forum/alphabeta/\">support forum</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Help translate WordPress</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Do you speak a language other than English? ¿Español? Français? Русский? 日本語? हिन्दी? বাংলা? You can <a href=\"https://translate.wordpress.org/projects/wp/dev/\">help translate WordPress into more than 100 languages</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The RC3 haiku</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>One week to go. Then:<br />Open the paintbox! Try the tools!<br />Play a new jazz tune.</p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-right\"><em>Props to  <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/meher/\" class=\"mention\"><span class=\"mentions-prefix\">@</span>meher</a> and <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/audrasjb/\" class=\"mention\"><span class=\"mentions-prefix\">@</span>audrasjb</a>. for peer review.</em></p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 09 Jul 2024 17:39:24 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:8:\"marybaum\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:42;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:79:\"Do The Woo Community: A Journey and the Evolution of WooCommerce with Beka Rice\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=84508\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:76:\"https://dothewoo.io/the-journey-and-evolution-of-woocommerce-with-beka-rice/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:45636:\"<div class=\"wp-block-group has-border-color has-light-gray-background-color has-background has-small-font-size has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-61 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p class=\"has-secondary-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-9acf640b7ba38a84a982fc35d618387f\">This show is sponsored by&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-vertical is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-60 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-13 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-59 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-base-background-color has-background wp-container-content-25 has-global-padding is-content-justification-left is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-58 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<img width=\"1650\" height=\"1650\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/dothewoo.io/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/avalara-logo-_dtw.png?resize=1650%2C1650&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-75400\" />\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-container-content-26\"><strong><a href=\"https://developer.avalara.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Avalara</a></strong>: help developers make sure their Woo projects are tax compliance done right with Avalara&#8217;s API. Visit their extensive developer resources today.</p>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\nEpisode Transcript\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p>Zach:<br />Zach Stepek here again with Carl Alexander for another episode of the Do the Woo Dev Chats. Carl, how are you doing, man?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />I had a good WordCamp EU, but I got Covid, so I&#8217;m slightly recovering from that now. I&#8217;ll be muting my phone so I can cough silently in my apartment, but otherwise, I&#8217;m doing quite well. How about you?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />While you were in Europe getting Covid, I had bronchitis in the US. It’s just been a fun month for respiratory things, evidently.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Yeah, apparently summer is now the time for respiratory issues. Usually, we&#8217;re from the north, so it&#8217;s a winter thing. Winter is when all the bugs come out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />Yes, unless you&#8217;re talking about cicadas, which have been recent. Those are the bugs that came out this summer for a lot of the Upper Midwest and a bunch of other places too. So that&#8217;s been fun. And we as developers, of course, know how to deal with bugs evidently. It’s been a very interesting month, watching some of the changes around Do the Woo. If you&#8217;ve missed that and you just come to listen to the dulcet tones of myself and Carl talking with developers about nerdy things,</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />It&#8217;s mostly your dulcet tones. I don&#8217;t think my tones are dulcet at all.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />Well, some people may be attracted to the accent, my friend. That being said, if you haven&#8217;t heard about the changes around Do the Woo, Bob did a great episode summarizing what shows there are now. We&#8217;re up to 12 shows, so I encourage you to check out some of those other shows if you haven&#8217;t yet. The most recent is our Enterprise WordPress and WooCommerce show, which is pretty cool, partnered with the Scale Consortium for that. So really cool stuff. But yeah, we&#8217;re growing and changing, and that&#8217;s always nice to see. This month we have decided to invite a friend I&#8217;ve known for a very long time now, Beka Rice, to join us here on the dev chat. Let&#8217;s start out, Beka, by introducing you a bit and seeing how you have been in the last month.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Beka:<br />Yes, I am one of the lucky folks who did not get Covid from WordCamp Europe, so very grateful for that. I had enough respiratory illnesses this winter that I am glad to be done with it, but it&#8217;s good to see you guys again. As Zach noted, I&#8217;m Beka Rice. I&#8217;ve worked with WooCommerce since 2013, maybe even before that. It&#8217;s been a long time—since I think version 1.4 if I go back in time a bit. I was one of the original folks at SkyVerge; Max, Justin, and I were partners there. We worked at SkyVerge for a long time and were acquired by GoDaddy in 2020. I still worked in the Woo ecosystem but had a number of other responsibilities and projects I was working on there as well. I left earlier this year after a few years of doing some really cool stuff but wanted to be back working with a small team. So now I have reentered the Woo atmosphere and am very excited to be back doing specific work with a small team again at Kestrel. It was nice to reconnect with a lot of people at WCEU, so if you were one of them, it was very good to see you again.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />Yeah, no, that&#8217;s quite a journey. I tell the story of how I got into WooCommerce—building a website for a record label I was part of, using the white light theme back in the day.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Beka:<br />It wasn&#8217;t Canvas?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />No, I used white light because it had the look that I was after. Those were very interesting days. One of my favorite parts of that time period was the fact that it was kind of the Wild West of WooCommerce. The fork had just happened recently, and we were all starting to adopt it and get into it. There was this Trello board with all these ideas for integrations and plugins, and people would go in there, claim the things they wanted to build, and then build them. Suddenly, we had this ecosystem of plugins and extensions for WooCommerce that started to grow. You and Max and Justin were very early in all of that. I know there were some cards that were claimed that you didn&#8217;t end up building. One in particular was taken over by someone else when the bandwidth just wasn&#8217;t there to do it. I think that was subscriptions, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Beka:<br />Well, I would have to ask them if that was a card they had talked about or not, but there were a number in the early days. I think &#8220;Wild West&#8221; is a great way to describe it because the community was so small at that point that you had a couple handfuls of developers who had gotten into WooCommerce, but there weren&#8217;t very many. There were more integrations and ideas and extensions than could simply be built by that small group of people. So certainly Max and Justin were earlier with that. I wasn&#8217;t developing anything at that time myself; I was more so doing documentation and support. But yeah, there were a lot of things that got built, some things that didn&#8217;t, some ideas that probably were big misses still. But with subscriptions in particular, that landing with Brent was probably a great thing all around. You can&#8217;t be mad about a really fantastic piece of software that someone else built.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />I don&#8217;t think so. Honestly, the ecosystem wouldn&#8217;t have Action Scheduler if that hadn&#8217;t happened. For those who don&#8217;t know, WooCommerce Subscriptions is what birthed Action Scheduler, which is the way WooCommerce handles asynchronous tasks in the background. Brent Shepherd and his team did all the work to make that happen. I still have my blue T-shirt, the collaborative T-shirt between SkyVerge and Prospress, the Subscriptions team. One of my profile photos that I frequently go back to is me wearing that shirt with a leather sport coat over it next to a performing arts venue that&#8217;s now five minutes from my house. It’s one of my favorite pictures, and it was taken by my former business partner, Scott.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Beka:<br />A lot of fond memories of those times for sure.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />We were still technically just exiting that Wild West era when the first WooConf happened, and we all got together in Austin. What year was that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Beka:<br />The second WooConf in Austin? Yeah, I think it was 2015.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />You and I both spoke at 2017; we were secondary keynotes then, so that was Seattle.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Beka:<br />We&#8217;re testing our memories here, Zach. But yes, there was one in San Francisco early on that was much smaller, then Austin, and then Seattle. All were really wonderful conferences. I would love to see something like that again in the Woo ecosystem.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />I tell them all the time, every WooCommerce event. Zach can&#8217;t go, but I crash all the WooCommerce events and consistently remind them they should have a dedicated WooCommerce event.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />A few people are calling for that now, and it&#8217;s a common thing. We miss it because it was our chance as a community to not only gather and be a community of builders and developers in one location but also a way to show off the cool stuff that&#8217;s been happening.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Beka:<br />Yeah, it’s hard in Woo, right? With it being decentralized, you don&#8217;t always have a view of what other people are doing. There&#8217;s no one source, not even Automattic, that knows every WooCommerce site out there. I think it was super valuable to see that across the community.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />For me, it was more networking. I was trying to find agencies that specialize in that or people that worked with it more because it&#8217;s hard at WordCamps. It’s people doing a bit of everything, so it&#8217;s hard to find the people that specialize in that. I&#8217;m actually really thankful I broke in because Bob sent me an invite that he couldn&#8217;t go to the first WordCamp Asia in Bangkok, and that got the ball rolling for me. A lot of WooCommerce people hang on the sidelines a bit at these WordCamps, so it&#8217;s hard to know who specializes in it, what the big agencies are, the big plugin companies, the big extension companies, who&#8217;s doing cool stuff. It’s just really hard to find them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />Yeah, it is, and I think Brian has done a great job with WooSesh, trying to keep some of that alive virtually, but virtual events don&#8217;t compare to being in person with a group of people. It&#8217;s still fun. I enjoy them. I love what WooSesh and WordSesh have done for the community, but it&#8217;s different than gathering in person.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Some conferences, like WPCampus, do a hybrid. I got accepted to speak this year but couldn&#8217;t go physically, so I declined because I&#8217;m like you. I think the physical connection aspect, the physical networking in person, is way better than virtual. So if that&#8217;s your goal, it&#8217;s really important. Conferences, it’s hard when you do purely virtual. I think it&#8217;s good that some events are trying to do this hybrid format at least to accommodate the speakers because it&#8217;s also about the speakers. It costs a lot of money. I think WPCampus actually has a bit of a stipend, but WordCamps don&#8217;t. So there’s financial accessibility, a question of how comfortable you are traveling. So I think it&#8217;s great to have these hybrid events, but for the speakers and attendees, there&#8217;s a big difference.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />It is. Right now, the designer and developer community are coming together in a virtual and physical hybrid event for Figma, right? Figma has their Config event happening yesterday and today as we&#8217;re recording. They&#8217;ve taken a hybrid model as well. They have a limited number of in-person tickets that sold out, and everybody else can attend virtually, which is pretty cool. I hope to see</p>\n\n\n\n<p>more events do that, take that hybrid approach, limit the number of attendees, but offer the people who couldn&#8217;t attend in person to attend virtually. It seems to be a really good model. The hardest part with that model is the participation of virtual people compared to those in person. I don&#8217;t think anybody&#8217;s really cracked the code on that yet. We&#8217;ll see, though. We&#8217;ll see if somebody figures that one out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />I remember there were these little virtual pixel 16-bit hallways during Covid. Some people, you could walk around and I was just like, no, thank you. I&#8217;m a bonafide nerd. I&#8217;m 41, started coding at seven. My first computer was a Phillips, which I learned something insane, that Phillips spawned ASML and so did TMSC. I always associated Phillips with shaving razors, but apparently, they were really good at computers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />They did a great job in the semiconductor industry and other parts of the computer industry. They&#8217;re also huge in medical. They’re kind of everywhere. I worked on a project back in my Adobe days. I was working on a Flex application built for a subsidiary of Siemens called Sorian, called Med Suite. It was an electronic medical record system built entirely in Adobe Flex.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Beka:<br />See, I find it interesting that you guys got into programming and the tech ecosystem prior to, let&#8217;s say, Woo or WordPress. Woo and WordPress is actually what got me into the ecosystem. My background was not in tech. I used WordPress early on to manage my website. The reason I learned HTML and then CSS was trying to insert tables on a website. How do I do this? There&#8217;s no WordPress to do a table. How do I do tables? Then, after you learn HTML and CSS, you keep going—PHP, you start to learn JavaScript. Even though I wouldn&#8217;t consider myself a very talented developer at this point, it’s never been my focus. I learned a lot about building and got into different ecosystems, different applications, worked extensively in Shopify, but have worked on e-commerce platform infrastructure as well. Since you&#8217;ve done other things outside the ecosystem prior to working with Woo and Prospress, and I have post working with it, how do you feel like the ecosystem these days compares? It&#8217;s definitely more mature than the early days. As a developer, if you were coming into this ecosystem today, are there things you would expect that you don&#8217;t see?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />I think if I were coming in new right now, the thing that would bother me the most is how to add a table that I can actually use in the block editor to call back your table story. The table block kind of sucks right now. Sorry to those responsible for that block, but at least I filed a bug report.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Beka:<br />Yeah, now you’re responsible for giving them the feedback.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />It&#8217;s inflexible. There&#8217;s barely anything you can do with it beyond displaying data. Not a lot of options to customize beyond that. The ecosystem is interesting. It is at this inflection point between what it used to be, primarily PHP, and what it&#8217;s becoming, this hybrid of PHP and React, JavaScript, and whatever new technology we want to insert next. The interaction API isn&#8217;t react. It&#8217;s something else. I can&#8217;t remember what the framework is. Is it Alpine JS?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />No, we were saying they should have. We had a conversation with Marcel and Mike when we did our joint. I have a lot of thoughts on the current state because I teach a lot of programming. I wrote an object-oriented programming book for WordPress developers that teaches computer science topics. It’s a huge loss to WordPress that you can&#8217;t do what you went through.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Beka:<br />Yeah, it&#8217;s really easy to get started with React, and then 27 steps later, now you can finally write some code.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Yeah, exactly. It’s not easy. There&#8217;s a lot of… I think now more than ever, WordPress needs to think about developer experience more if they want to go that route. Before, PHP by itself offered a really good developer experience because you could just literally edit a file, FTP it up. Okay, you&#8217;re cowboy coding, but you could get something done. You could change something and see the effect.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Beka:<br />Well, you could see your white screen of death, but then you got to see your effects later.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Then you fixed it, or you could display errors there. It felt more accessible for somebody with no programming background. Now it&#8217;s like, oh, I have to learn react templates. I have to learn this. I have to learn that. But forget about that because does my thing even build right now? I think it&#8217;s a huge loss to the ecosystem. I&#8217;m starting to get to the point where, I mean, things change. Nothing stays the same forever. But I think it&#8217;s more obvious than ever that WordPress, yes, it&#8217;s more mature, but the whole community nature of it is not really the same either. My favorite analogy is that it&#8217;s more like a corporate-backed open source project like MySQL. MySQL is super boring. Nobody knows who works on MySQL. It’s Oracle that must sponsor a lot of developers. WordPress is not quite the same, but it&#8217;s not the kumbaya of open source where people can make contributions. But there needs to be a focus on developer experience, especially in the PHP ecosystem. You&#8217;re competing with JavaScript, which is really popular. Then on the other side, you have something like Laravel that actually does care about developer experience. It’s completely different. If I told somebody to learn something in PHP, now I&#8217;d tell them to try Laravel. They’ll be closer to doing what you wanted to do, which is edit a template file. The syntax is different, but I see HTML tags. I can add some HTML tags. There&#8217;s some stuff there. I don&#8217;t have to compile it. There&#8217;s just so much tooling around it. How do you bring new people in? WordPress used to attract people that never did programming. That’s the best part. That’s what I find the most exciting. I think that&#8217;s what makes the community so diverse. People came from so many different backgrounds, just learned WordPress, and could contribute and build a company like yours. Well, you&#8217;re at your second company now, but SkyVerge was a big company, got bought by GoDaddy, and it started with somebody editing HTML files and adding tables. That&#8217;s amazing. To me, that&#8217;s crazy. So that&#8217;s why I think about that a lot.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Beka:<br />Yeah, the diversity one is interesting. I certainly don&#8217;t have a problem at all with a project evolving and becoming more mature. There were parts of WordPress that needed that. If we go back 10 years, the Wild West wasn&#8217;t the way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />No, absolutely.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Beka:<br />We&#8217;ve all seen the good and bad side of that. I think the biggest thing that I see sometimes is if you don&#8217;t have that kind of diversity of thought, you develop pieces of the project in a certain way. I sometimes see that with blocks. Exactly, your point about the table block. One of the things I&#8217;ve seen in WordPress is it was so accessible to me because of how extensible it was. You learn about actions and filters and the hook system, and you&#8217;re empowered to change something without having to completely write your application. Literally with a code snippet, six lines of code, I can change a thing. It gets addictive in a way where now I&#8217;ve changed this thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />Absolutely.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Beka:<br />Then you learn more. Within a couple of years, I was like, I really want to write my own plugin and started writing my own plugins. You progressively learn. I&#8217;m not saying my path is the right one or even a good one, but that extensibility is what got you in. It empowers a lot of people to use the software and made it popular. Sometimes with the block ecosystem, and I&#8217;ve had conversations with the Woo folks about that, who have been very receptive, which is wonderful, without that extensibility or ability to modify things, it makes the project less accessible to those tinkerers. People just trying to build a website for some local business that contracted them and is like, can you do this? It sacrifices some of the interoperability that&#8217;s unique to commerce. If you&#8217;re a publishing site, a block may be the most atomic piece of your workflow. I put a form here, a button there. But from our perspective, working in WooCommerce, that&#8217;s not the smallest piece because another extension needs to modify that too or add something of its own into your form. That&#8217;s been challenging. The diversity of thought of people who have grown up in open source and with that extensibility and playing in the sandbox with everybody else versus in isolation is something I feel is missing in modern day. I don&#8217;t know if you feel the same way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />I do to a point. I&#8217;ve provided feedback on some of the blocks WooCommerce has released, like the cart and checkout blocks. They are these monolithic pieces. They&#8217;re not separated well and weren&#8217;t extensible for a while. It wasn&#8217;t easy to extend them. They finally added the ability to add your own text blocks to the checkout, which was missing. I think the more we think about blocks, the more we have to think about blocks at the atomic level and how they compose into larger patterns. The patterns weren&#8217;t fleshed out when WooCommerce blocks started. I get why the checkout block and the cart block are more 